Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
I was bought this book as a Christmas present. I just finished reading it this morning. I enjoyed it and found it interesting, but noticed a significant number of errors, particularly around people's ages.
For example, we know from Season 1 that Johnny Horne was 27 years old in 1989. So, in 2017 he would be 55, not in his early 40s as the Final Dossier claims.
Donna Hayward arrived in New York in 1992 (3 years after Laura's murder) aged 18. This means she would have been only 15 while in the same school year as Laura, who died aged 17 or 18, depending on whether you believe Mark's last book or the TV series.
Annie was born in 1973, meaning she would have been 16 when she met Dale Cooper in 1989. Yet the Final Dossier says she was in her early 20s when she moved to Twin Peaks.
There are others, but those were the 3 that really stuck in my mind.
These are really basic mathematical errors. I'm thinking there are two main possibilities:
- This is all deliberate by Frost to indicate the non-linear nature of time in Twin Peaks.
- He's just really bad with numbers.
Which do you think it is?
But even if it was done deliberately, I'd still be disappointed. I think there are far better ways to mess with reality than with basic things like this. Get the basics right, then go from there. Get their ages right, then we can get into the weird stuff. If people's ages are wrong and I'm not sure whether it's a mistake or on purpose, that just irritates me.
It's like when Dougie Cooper didn't grow any facial hair and nobody complained about his stinky armpits, even though he couldn't even urinate without his wife helping him. It's just such basic stuff that gets overlooked. Get the real basic stuff right, then all the weird stuff that follows is more believable.
I mean, otherwise you might as well just say that Dale Cooper was born in the First World War in Switzerland, but somehow grew up American. In 1930, aged 65, he flew to the Moon, where he met Phillip Jeffries, who, aged 3, was the father of Gordon Cole, aged 106. In 1952 they journeyed to Mars, where they met Annie (5) and her daughter Donna (72), and they all went to Jupiter for Christmas, where Donna gave birth to the weird frog lizard bird thing that climbed inside Sarah Palmer in another dimension.
I mean, otherwise you might as well just say that Dale Cooper was born in the First World War in Switzerland, but somehow grew up American. In 1930, aged 65, he flew to the Moon, where he met Phillip Jeffries, who, aged 3, was the father of Gordon Cole, aged 106. In 1952 they journeyed to Mars, where they met Annie (5) and her daughter Donna (72), and they all went to Jupiter for Christmas, where Donna gave birth to the weird frog lizard bird thing that climbed inside Sarah Palmer in another dimension.
This a perfect representation of why I am upset with the finale'. Between people close to and actually in the production, saying that they kind of made it up as they went along, the obvious clerical or mathematical errors in the authorized, companion handbooks, and a complete lack of comprehensive story structure, it seems like we as the audience are left with making up any theory we want to satisfy our psyche at what we have just witnessed. While I agree that it has opened up our minds as we desperately attempt to organize things into little bits of understood and accepted, cohesion. It has also made a mess of them with it's refusal to be observed and understood. Have you ever played "Riven?" It was an exceptional mind-fuck that had books and websites dedicated to solving it, until someone did. And then some cheats would let you work things out on your own to allow for the feeling of accomplishment and some cheats would just fast-pass you to the end that you so desperately wanted to see and hear. It was up to you to decide how you went back and finished the game, but because you knew it had a completion, you were dedicated to finishing the game. By dedication I mean locked in your house for weekends and weeknights trying to accomplish the seemingly impossible. Now imagine if that game had no end...and that is almost exactly what Twin Peaks just did to me...unless it is all a plan for a 4th and final season.
It is definitely the craziest merry go round I have ever been on...more like a merry go mobius in 4 dimension ride.
This claim of things just being made up as they went along confuses me. Yes, I'm sure a lot of things were ad-libbed, ad-hoc, and ad-gitating, but there was a script. Remember how only Kyle got to see it. Also it seems like David had a pretty specific plan for episode 8.
I'm very curious to hear more about the things that were made up along the way. I know of a few stories where unexpected things happened that just worked and were kept.
This claim of things just being made up as they went along confuses me. Yes, I'm sure a lot of things were ad-libbed, ad-hoc, and ad-gitating, but there was a script. Remember how only Kyle got to see it. Also it seems like David had a pretty specific plan for episode 8.
I'm very curious to hear more about the things that were made up along the way. I know of a few stories where unexpected things happened that just worked and were kept.
These are not my claims though they align with things I have stated.
One is from Frank Silva and One is from Robert Engles, who worked with L/F on writing the season 2 and FWWM.
And in more than 1 celebrity/Cast interview on this site they talk about how it was a script sometimes, changed at last minute, sometimes no script etc.
I am not saying they didn't have a plan, Season 3 seemed very planned in some respects and at certain times, just follow the coordinates story line for an example.
I am saying that it was like they were buttoning their shirt up in the dark and when things were brought into the light, it didn't always line up so well.
And it makes my brain hurt...
I have no doubt that most, if not all of season 2 was created in the spot. I often wonder if L/F even knew that Leland killed Laura when they started or if they just decided right before they went down that path.
So what about the coordinates bit are you referring to? (Still haven't rewatched, so memory is a bit foggy)
And please don't think I'm challenging you. I am legitimately curious and wanting to know more.
I was just saying that the coordinates have a very strong, linear story that was planned and well thought out. How they came from Briggs and his secret work in season 2 to end up being a quest for Mr.C in Season 3 is obviously well thought out and planned.
You can challenge all you want, that is what we are all here for, answers, closure, making sense of a shirt that is all buttoned up wrong in public.
I am not happy that I am discovering some of my initial assessments of the show are actually (probably) more correct than not. I am surely not happy if they just did anything they wanted without any rhyme or reason. But I need to accept that it is one answer to the big mystery of Twin Peaks. I mean sometimes it is just spilled ink, not a Rorschach test...
But I don't want to challenge you....on this subject anyway. ?
I really do want to understand and not looking to bicker about it. And I don't want to create a situation for you to feel defensive. That will only impede my access to the info. ?
But I don't want to challenge you....on this subject anyway. ?
I really do want to understand and not looking to bicker about it. And I don't want to create a situation for you to feel defensive. That will only impede my access to the info. ?
Brandy,
We aren't bickering and I am not going to withhold any info available to me. Everything is cool and I certainly don't feel defensive about anything you have ever said.
Relax and enjoy the Merry go Mobius in 4 dimensions ride that we have subjected ourselves to. Besides, I am counting on you for that article!
Jack
As far as the quotes about making it up as they went along, I think about what we see of Lynch directing in these special features that just came out. In the hotel room scene in particular, one gets the sense that he can see it in his mind, and is conveying that to the actors. Or I recall Dana Ashbrook telling a story about Lynch feeding him lines through the phone in FWWM I think it was... So, I could well see Silva, e.g., only being told what to do right before shooting his scenes, etc. I think that's different from the connotations one might attach to this idea of making it up as they went...
As to the Leland question, I definitely recall an interview or something that made clear that they always knew it was Leland.
My take on the question about the years is they probably started from the inconsistencies about what year Laura was killed (the Secret Diary would seem to make it 1990, and I think there were some other places, promo material or whatever, where it might have been stated as 1991), In the first instance, I think this was just a mistake, but that it inspired something as Lynch and Frost turned toward the creation of new material. The years are not even consistent between the Secret History and the Final Dossier! I mean, the dates on TP's reports themselves, since it would seem the Final Dossier is being written right after the events of Part 17, and Tammy tells us they found the Secret History dossier in Buckhorn while they were there, yet the FD is dated 2017, whereas the SH is dated 2016... And the months don't work, either, if The Return was in late Sept/early Oct of whatever year.
James says it is his birthday at one point, but his birthday is January 1 according to the Access Guide etc. And so on, and so on. There is so much of this stuff at this point, that it has to be intentional. From which I think we are to draw one of two conclusions:
1) We are being told not to worry about this stuff - the dates are insignificant; it is the meaning of the events we should focus on
2) the nature of time has gotten messed up, and/or there are multiple realities at play where the year events occur differs. For example, diegetically Laura's murder happened in 1989, but for us as viewers it happened in 1990. The details of this approach could vary. It could simply be that different realities number the years differently. But regardless, this would be to suggest that the meaningfulness of the narrative of Twin Peaks transverses many worlds, or something like that.
I don't think these are entirely mutually exclusive, though I lean towards (2). After all, the last line of the show is, "What year is this?"
As far as the quotes about making it up as they went along, I think about what we see of Lynch directing in these special features that just came out. In the hotel room scene in particular, one gets the sense that he can see it in his mind, and is conveying that to the actors. Or I recall Dana Ashbrook telling a story about Lynch feeding him lines through the phone in FWWM I think it was... So, I could well see Silva, e.g., only being told what to do right before shooting his scenes, etc. I think that's different from the connotations one might attach to this idea of making it up as they went...
As to the Leland question, I definitely recall an interview or something that made clear that they always knew it was Leland.
My take on the question about the years is they probably started from the inconsistencies about what year Laura was killed (the Secret Diary would seem to make it 1990, and I think there were some other places, promo material or whatever, where it might have been stated as 1991), In the first instance, I think this was just a mistake, but that it inspired something as Lynch and Frost turned toward the creation of new material. The years are not even consistent between the Secret History and the Final Dossier! I mean, the dates on TP's reports themselves, since it would seem the Final Dossier is being written right after the events of Part 17, and Tammy tells us they found the Secret History dossier in Buckhorn while they were there, yet the FD is dated 2017, whereas the SH is dated 2016... And the months don't work, either, if The Return was in late Sept/early Oct of whatever year.
James says it is his birthday at one point, but his birthday is January 1 according to the Access Guide etc. And so on, and so on. There is so much of this stuff at this point, that it has to be intentional. From which I think we are to draw one of two conclusions:
1) We are being told not to worry about this stuff - the dates are insignificant; it is the meaning of the events we should focus on
2) the nature of time has gotten messed up, and/or there are multiple realities at play where the year events occur differs. For example, diegetically Laura's murder happened in 1989, but for us as viewers it happened in 1990. The details of this approach could vary. It could simply be that different realities number the years differently. But regardless, this would be to suggest that the meaningfulness of the narrative of Twin Peaks transverses many worlds, or something like that.
I don't think these are entirely mutually exclusive, though I lean towards (2). After all, the last line of the show is, "What year is this?"
I have read about a script, not 18 scripts (1 for each episode of season 3) but one HUGE script for all of season 3 being presented to showtime execs. I am not sure I believe this urban myth as it was only green lit for 9 episodes at first and then it was almost cancelled and then re-negotiated for a bigger budget and 18 episodes. However I would KILL to get my hands on a script for all 18 shows if it existed just so I could compare it to the final cut.
Even if I can't read it, but there is proof that it exists, it would mean that L/F at least started with a plan during pre-production...no matter how sideways it got in production and post.
Such a small thing to set my mind at ease...
Even if I can't read it, but there is proof that it exists, it would mean that L/F at least started with a plan during pre-production...no matter how sideways it got in production and post.
Such a small thing to set my mind at ease...
Kyle MacLachlan has said in interviews that he read it, but apparently he was the only actor who got to read the whole thing. Is this sufficient for you to believe in its existence? 🙂
I think the idea that there was one script of the whole actually fits better with those differences in episode count than if each episode had its own script.
Even if I can't read it, but there is proof that it exists, it would mean that L/F at least started with a plan during pre-production...no matter how sideways it got in production and post.
Such a small thing to set my mind at ease...
Kyle MacLachlan has said in interviews that he read it, but apparently he was the only actor who got to read the whole thing. Is this sufficient for you to believe in its existence? 🙂
I think the idea that there was one script of the whole actually fits better with those differences in episode count than if each episode had its own script.
I think knowing it exists, and Kyle has seen and read it, lends credibility to the fact that they at least had a "Guideline" to work and they formulated some sort of plan before they shot the first scene.
Definitely a happy thought as it applies to the realm of Twin Peaks and the world they have created.
1 script to rule them all, 1 script to find them. 1 script to bring them all, and in the chaos, bind them.
It just seems lazy to get such fundamental numbers wrong. It devalues the rest of it, in my opinion. It's like building a gigantic cathedral on sand, it all falls down. Born in 1973 but in her early 20s by 1989? What the hell?! It's the type of error I would expect from a school kid with learning difficulties, not an experienced professional author who really should know better. If it's accidental, it's a stupid mistake to make. If it's intentional, it's a stupid decision. Either way, it's not good in my opinion.
I have read about a script, not 18 scripts (1 for each episode of season 3) but one HUGE script for all of season 3 being presented to showtime execs. I am not sure I believe this urban myth as it was only green lit for 9 episodes at first and then it was almost cancelled and then re-negotiated for a bigger budget and 18 episodes. However I would KILL to get my hands on a script for all 18 shows if it existed just so I could compare it to the final cut.
Even if I can't read it, but there is proof that it exists, it would mean that L/F at least started with a plan during pre-production...no matter how sideways it got in production and post.
Such a small thing to set my mind at ease...
When all the filming was over, Lynch did not know yet how many episodes will be produced : http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/news/david-lynch-editing-twin-peaks-tca16/
Editing took many months and was exhausting.
Read this interview of DuWayne Dunham the editor of TPTR (with the story of the color index cards) :
https://www.provideocoalition.com/AOTC-TWIN-PEAKS
I've read in top french movie magazine "Les Cahiers du Cinéma" a long interview of David Lynch (december issue).
He says that when the TPTR editing began, he did not know where the very important scene with Sarah Palmer smashing Laura's portrait will be taking place.
This choice was finally made during the editing.
He says also that Hollywood rules are "one script page = one movie minute". For Lynch, one script page = 20 seconds or 5 minutes. That depends on the content of the page.
(BTW, in 2017, Les Cahiers du Cinéma printed two magazine covers with Twin Peaks and one with Lynch ! TPTR is the movie of 2017 year for this magazine. Yes, the movie. 80% of the editorial staff voted TPTR #1.)
It just seems lazy to get such fundamental numbers wrong. It devalues the rest of it, in my opinion. It's like building a gigantic cathedral on sand, it all falls down. Born in 1973 but in her early 20s by 1989? What the hell?! It's the type of error I would expect from a school kid with learning difficulties, not an experienced professional author who really should know better. If it's accidental, it's a stupid mistake to make. If it's intentional, it's a stupid decision. Either way, it's not good in my opinion.
I think it is pretty clearly intentional. I gave a number of examples above, but there are more, such as Wally's birthday being impossible. I spent the Return obsessively trying to determine what year it was, and where the SH dossier fit it. I ultimately decided that the events were happening in late Sept 2016, and there is a good amount of evidence for this, but that would mean the dossier was found and the SH written up by Tammy prior to the events of the Return. Now, in the FD, we are told they found the dossier in Buckhorn, and so on. Basically, there are too many inconsistencies along these lines to chalk up to mistakes.
So, it seems clear to me all of this is intentional at this point. I gave my attempt at making it interesting above, more or less. I do agree with you to some extent. Annie being in her early 20s when she came to Twin Peaks feels right, but then why say she was born in 1973? What bothers me isn't that they decided to play with temporal inconsistencies; it is that there does not seem to be a way to unlock them. I mean, I can put forward the theory that it relates to multiple realities or something like that, but trying to fit different things into different versions of reality feels like it would be a fool's errand.
So, here's the best I've got: when Cooper went back and kept Laura from being killed, he broke time. The events of the narrative of Twin Peaks occur, but when they occur is in flux, or is indeterminate. Time has been thrown out of joint. So, Laura died in 1989 or 1990 or 1991 or 1992 or 1993... (moving in the direction of Annie being born in 1973 but in her 20s at the time, by shifting the year of Laura's murder), or she didn't die, but disappeared... The events of The Return are equally, then, either in 2014 or 2015 or 2016 or 2017... (25 years later). Audrey's scenes relate, I think, to this temporal indeterminacy. She wants to go to the Roadhouse, does not want to go, both wants to go and does not want to go (all repetitions of the same basic scene with Charlie). So, "what year is this?" doesn't mean "what year is it in the ordinary succession of years on a calendar?" but rather points to the way in which time has been fractured, become indeterminate, or thrown out of whack. There is no chronos - time has been thrown fully into kairos ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kairos)
Then maybe a new chronology is settling in once we get to "Today" in the Final Dossier...
Fire walk with 
