Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
Given that he was shot and is now pretty much fine, it does beg the question of whether he can actually be killed.
Now, I am thinking that the woodsmen who were rubbing blood all over him were trying to enjoy over his death, also the person he talked to in the motel after killing Darya was also trying to get him 'back in the lodge' and wanted BOB; seems like the woodsmen, Jeffries, et. all think Mr. C/BOB is taking more than his fair share of tyrannous control/pain-enjoyment/terror-protection-control, cycle of fear and tyranny, etc......
Also we had that NIN song between when Mr. C was shot and when he came back to life, saying 'shes gone' to Mr. C(Annie, Laura, old Twin Peaks). This works with the woodsmen taunting Mr. C by rubbing the blood. These taunts are trying to kill the person: remember at the homeless squat when Hastings' love, the librarian, her body appeared? It is then that the woodsment taunts him, 'shes gone', gets in his head, he cant take it(was very shocked by everything that was happening, just engaged in some blog and research and angered the wrong people who are killing him) Hastings' head explodes, just an ordinary guy with force of heavy Mr. C/billionaire terror coming down on him, ruining his whole life, hopes, love, etc., labeled a threat to them. Mr. C comes back after being shot(almost as if when they taunt him, he says, what is this, kindergarten), BOB's appearance was probably plugging up one of those gunshot wounds, the fatal one , and I am almost sure that he was shot more than once, but when he shows his wounds there is only one non fatal shot that missed the organs left. The 'shes gone' and taunting does not kill Mr. C, like it does for Hastings, since Mr. C enjoys that 'shes gone'(Laura's gone, BOB wanted to fully be in Laura even after ruining her) to keep the hopes of her saving him alive, BOB/Mr. C hiding from the fact that shes' gone by pretending that if he enjoys that shes gone, it will keep her alive, still feed off of her, etc...., that she wont really be gone, but in the pain of her loss, live on, the woodsmen and the NIN song were trying to press home that shes really gone, killed by what BOB/Mr. C did and not coming back......BOB/Mr. C(and Laura: Im dead, but yet I live) live by not accepting shes really gone, that they killed her, still feeding off her pain(like James after burying her heart then using Laura's legacy to go on a 'romantic' spree which resulted in the deaths of several people, but never faced up to the truth of the death like Bobby did, pretended it would just go on as normal....'just you and I to Laura', but Lauras dead and this 'feeling' spreads into any and every girl/woman).
So Mr. C can be killed, but it will take something to do with Laura, that undoes his defenses of enjoying in pain and pretending that she is not really dead, his religious belief that a 'prom queen' will save him. Probably this will also release BOB from Mr. C and restore Cooper back at the same time, since Laura issue then resolved(she is dead, etc., Twin Peaks is going to have to face up to what they are doing, etc.), cannot pretend all is alright anymore, face up to traumatic past instead of going on a rampage....
Aren't there some cultures in the world where they don't really consider individual people to have their own identities? Everyone is part of a group or a society, but having an identity beyond that is meaningless to them.
It's interesting what you say about machine intelligence. People raise the problem of consciousness. Would a machine be conscious? But how do we know for sure we are conscious? You just kind of know, but you can't quite pinpoint how you know for sure that you're conscious.
So is consciousness merely just the sum total of the processes happening in the brain? For example:
- Remove the visual coretex, you would no longer be conscious of sight.
- Remove the part of the brain that deals with sound (whatever that is), you would no longer be conscious of sound.
- Do that for each of the parts of the brain that process sensory input.
- Also remove the part of the brain where thinking happens, and the part that gives us emotions.
- Remove our memories...
Once you've taken all that away, there would nothing to be conscious of, right?
This is why I don't like the idea of a conscious being (a God) existing before anything else existed in the universe. If there is nothing to be conscious of, there is no consciousness. I mean, even in complete darkness, you still need a visual cortex to be conscious of the absence of light.
So, err, yeah...would Dale Cooper still have been the same Dale Cooper even if the whole Dougie thing hadn't happened? No he wouldn't. Be he also wouldn't have been the same Dale Cooper if he'd stayed out of the Black Lodge and just kept being an FBI agent for 25 years. 25 years is plenty of time for some serious stuff to happen that changes you as a person, Black Lodge or no Black Lodge.
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
Agreed. This is highlighted for me by how poorly DarkDale does when he is actually trying to IMITATE Dale. When speaking to both Gordon and Diane in prison, that is when his voice is slow and strange, he seems utterly artificial. The scene of the window closing on DarkDale's unmoving, frozen smile and thumbs up, is, I think, the most chilling moment of the series for me. It is also the only moment in the series when we seem him smile. Just about the most awful thing I have ever seen.
The doppelganger is not Dale.
But let me just say, again, that Kyle M. has the most precise facial muscle control of any actor I have ever seen. If there is no Emmy here for him, there is no justice (which, by my age, you'd think I'd be used to).
In episode 2, the Evolution of the Arm called Bob back to the lodge. 'Bob. Bob. Bob.' Mirroring the Cooper. Cooper. Cooper. from season 2. The switch with Agent Cooper was thwarted by the Doppelganger Arm, who sent Agent Cooper away saying 'Non Existent'. Perhaps there will be a confrontation involving the Doppelgangers and their true selves before Agent Cooper's story can be resolved.
Dale has the help of the lodge on his side, and he will need that to deal with Mr. C.
Yes but Mr C has lodge help too. For years he has received some kind of communiques from the other side. That is how he knew he was supposed to return to the Black lodge. Lodge creatures saved his life. I have no idea what the leverage point will be.
Dale has the help of the lodge on his side, and he will need that to deal with Mr. C.
Yes but Mr C has lodge help too. For years he has received some kind of communiques from the other side. That is how he knew he was supposed to return to the Black lodge. Lodge creatures saved his life. I have no idea what the leverage point will be.
Seems they - the Lodge - are currently trying to use DougieCoop and helping him to assemble some backup, in the form of the Mitchum Brothers, Battling Bud, Candie, Janey-E, and quite possibly some of the cops, once they're made aware of the corruption he's uncovered.
Possibly even the people at Twin Peaks are being prepared for the showdown, too. Sarah may be being contacted by the Lodge gang, or ???????
Then, there's the question of whether Cole and his bunch are going to get wind of happenings in Vegas or Twin Peaks, and how they play it out.
I don't believe the Lodge guys are doing it out of good nature; it's sheer pragmatism. If Mr C isn't reined in, the whole universe could go tits up in short order.
Merging would be the Star Trek ending. The Enemy Within, a great classic episode, written by Richard Matheson ("I Am Legend" and many others) does this. It seems like a very 1960s idea and not Lynch at all. In Lynch's Jungian worldview, merging the ego with the shadow would be a disaster.
Merging would be the Star Trek ending. The Enemy Within, a great classic episode, written by Richard Matheson ("I Am Legend" and many others) does this. It seems like a very 1960s idea and not Lynch at all. In Lynch's Jungian worldview, merging the ego with the shadow would be a disaster.
Well, if my idea is correct it wouldn't be so much a merging, more a getting back that which had been stolen. Maybe one of those little gold bead thingies. Mr C gets barbecued, out pops one of those pearls, Dale eats it - at least, I hope so; I really, really don't want to see him inserting a gold pearl suppository - and gets back the missing half of his personality.
That would be fun because he would then have full knowledge of what Mr C did, every single act of violence and depravity, every time he kicked a beggar or threw rocks at a stray cat, left chewing gum on a bus seat, pulled the "Do Not Remove" stickers off mattresses and so on. Coop would have to find a way to internalize and deal with all that. Could be quite a wild ride. Or maybe he'll just return to normal, with either a sketchy idea, or no memory of it at all.
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
Agreed. This is highlighted for me by how poorly DarkDale does when he is actually trying to IMITATE Dale. When speaking to both Gordon and Diane in prison, that is when his voice is slow and strange, he seems utterly artificial. The scene of the window closing on DarkDale's unmoving, frozen smile and thumbs up, is, I think, the most chilling moment of the series for me. It is also the only moment in the series when we seem him smile. Just about the most awful thing I have ever seen.
The doppelganger is not Dale.
But let me just say, again, that Kyle M. has the most precise facial muscle control of any actor I have ever seen. If there is no Emmy here for him, there is no justice (which, by my age, you'd think I'd be used to).
Oh yes, the smile and thumb up gesture. Definitely a very creepy scene. Now imagine that happening with your own reflection.
You're welcome!
?
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
Agreed. This is highlighted for me by how poorly DarkDale does when he is actually trying to IMITATE Dale. When speaking to both Gordon and Diane in prison, that is when his voice is slow and strange, he seems utterly artificial. The scene of the window closing on DarkDale's unmoving, frozen smile and thumbs up, is, I think, the most chilling moment of the series for me. It is also the only moment in the series when we seem him smile. Just about the most awful thing I have ever seen.
The doppelganger is not Dale.
But let me just say, again, that Kyle M. has the most precise facial muscle control of any actor I have ever seen. If there is no Emmy here for him, there is no justice (which, by my age, you'd think I'd be used to).
Oh yes, the smile and thumb up gesture. Definitely a very creepy scene. Now imagine that happening with your own reflection.
You're welcome!
?
Oh, thanks. I had no need for sleep tonight.
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
They don't have the same memories & experiences, Mr. C. has been out in our world for 25 years while Coop has been in the BL.
Dale has the help of the lodge on his side, and he will need that to deal with Mr. C.
Yes but Mr C has lodge help too. For years he has received some kind of communiques from the other side. That is how he knew he was supposed to return to the Black lodge. Lodge creatures saved his life. I have no idea what the leverage point will be.
Laura had help from BL helpers ( the Chalfonts/Tremonds, Mike ), and Cooper had help from the Giant & Mike, past & now.
From Wikipedia:
'In addition to denoting a cannibalistic monster from their traditional folklore, Native Americans also understand the wendigo conceptually. As a concept, the wendigo can apply to any person, idea, or movement infected by a corrosive drive toward self-aggrandizing greed and excessive consumption, traits that sow disharmony and destruction if left unchecked. Ojibwe scholar Brady DeSanti asserts that the wendigo “can be understood as a marker indicating . . . a person . . . imbalanced both internally and toward the larger community of human and spiritual beings around them."[26] Out of equilibrium and estranged by their communities, individuals afflicted by the wendigo spirit unravel and destroy the environmental balance around them.'
" a person . . . imbalanced both internally and toward the larger community of human and spiritual beings around them."
Sounds like a description of the orange man in an oval room.
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
They don't have the same memories & experiences, Mr. C. has been out in our world for 25 years while Coop has been in the BL.
Up to the point where they split, Captain Picky. 😉
Fire walk with 
