Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
I'm not sure that original Coop will ever return and even less sure that he will emerge from Dougie. What would happen if Mr C killed Dougie?
Yeah, this episode has shown that regarding the Coopers, its not so easy as saying that Dougie is good while Mr. C is bad(good easily becomes bad in many cases). Dougie was in with the mobsters, and humiliated Anthony(who saved his life and broke up the gang fights) with Mullins, he would follow along basically anything and I think the point is that he 'took the ring', following the lead of the world Mr. C leads(as long as he can get pies, etc.). How is Dougie going to save anyone/anything as he is, without some ability like Mr. C to lead? He just followed Mullins and Mitchums, follows anyone....and 'plays catch'. If old agent cooper comes back it would have to be a destruction of both of these characters, while Cooper would be more able to distance himself from the Mr. C and Dougie-like 'modes of acting', so they do not get an autonomous life of their own, running to separate extremes without end....Dougie and Mr. C can only exist together/separate, one takes the ring, other forces the ring and has independence over that world which took the ring..........what disappears when they are independent and autonomous, is the public freedom, old community of twin peaks, Laura as prom queen, etc....the middle world of free interaction not determined by natural barbarism and mafia threats
One thing I've noticed is just how different the original doppelganger was (in final scene of series 2) compared with the older, Mr C doppelganger.
The original, younger doppelganger seemed far more primal, energetic. Quite manic. I guess there are many reasons why this could be: general age/maturity of being outside the lodge. Distance from BOB/the lodge. Learning of the need to fit in and not raise suspicion.
Just thinking aloud. I wonder if we'll see more erratic behaviour from Mr C, perhaps his true self will soon be revealed in a more ghastly form.
One thing I've noticed is just how different the original doppelganger was (in final scene of series 2) compared with the older, Mr C doppelganger.
The original, younger doppelganger seemed far more primal, energetic. Quite manic. I guess there are many reasons why this could be: general age/maturity of being outside the lodge. Distance from BOB/the lodge. Learning of the need to fit in and not raise suspicion.
Just thinking aloud. I wonder if we'll see more erratic behaviour from Mr C, perhaps his true self will soon be revealed in a more ghastly form.
I think we will see more erratic behavior from Mr. C now, he was already taking a big risk going into that farm like that, just because he 'wanted' revenge on Ray. After 'his car veered over off the road, and thats when he had his accident', Mr. C vomited up the 'pain-garmanbozia' which he had eaten, which allowed him to remain independent of the world, now slowly he wants(while Dougie slowly learning to fight, be independent). After the car wreck, Mr. C's mugshot was a goofy smile, and he was giving the thumbs up to Gordon Cole like Dougie, he recovered later, but that Dougie part of him(pies, etc.) is slowly creeping back in......dangerous for Mr. C.....
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
To go deeper with this, are you the same person you were 25 years ago? Many of your body's cells have been replaced, and your personality will have evolved, so you're definitely not exactly the same as you were 25 years ago. But are you still you? What makes any of us who we are?
Also, compare who you are now to if there was an exactly clone made of you 25 years ago which was somehow kept frozen in time. Which would more accurately be you, in relation to who you were 25 years ago?
Is it possible the answer is "neither"?
Is there even really a "you" to BE?
Reintegration of two Coops, as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b36eDbvRGE0 ? Maybe.
But Dougie knows how to fight if he has to (even if he needs some advise), so he's not void of reflex and violence. Dougie is learning how to pee, drink, eat and now he starts expressing some symptoms of free will.
I think we will see more erratic behavior from Mr. C now, he was already taking a big risk going into that farm like that, just because he 'wanted' revenge on Ray. After 'his car veered over off the road, and thats when he had his accident', Mr. C vomited up the 'pain-garmanbozia' which he had eaten, which allowed him to remain independent of the world, now slowly he wants(while Dougie slowly learning to fight, be independent). After the car wreck, Mr. C's mugshot was a goofy smile, and he was giving the thumbs up to Gordon Cole like Dougie, he recovered later, but that Dougie part of him(pies, etc.) is slowly creeping back in......dangerous for Mr. C.....
That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. The more Dougie begins to piece together his Cooper memories, perhaps the more Mr C. assimilates Dougie/Coop's characteristics.
One thing I've noticed is just how different the original doppelganger was (in final scene of series 2) compared with the older, Mr C doppelganger.
The original, younger doppelganger seemed far more primal, energetic. Quite manic. I guess there are many reasons why this could be: general age/maturity of being outside the lodge. Distance from BOB/the lodge. Learning of the need to fit in and not raise suspicion.
Just thinking aloud. I wonder if we'll see more erratic behaviour from Mr C, perhaps his true self will soon be revealed in a more ghastly form.
I think we will see more erratic behavior from Mr. C now, he was already taking a big risk going into that farm like that, just because he 'wanted' revenge on Ray.
That wasn't pure revenge. What about the coordinates?
One thing I've noticed is just how different the original doppelganger was (in final scene of series 2) compared with the older, Mr C doppelganger.
The original, younger doppelganger seemed far more primal, energetic. Quite manic. I guess there are many reasons why this could be: general age/maturity of being outside the lodge. Distance from BOB/the lodge. Learning of the need to fit in and not raise suspicion.
To be fair, in between the BL behavior and "how's Annie," we have "I need to brush my teeth," delivered just about how Mr. C. would.
I'm not sure that a 'merger' between clear avatars of good and evil feels very David Lynch. I think he's much more interested in the struggle between them based on his previous work.
What happens to the town of TP in the aftermath of a merger? Eternal mediocrity? I think things will break one way or another.
The identity problem...
Is a perfect copy the same individual, if the original dies? If two things are identical in every respect, which is the "real" one? Note the italics. They're important because, it's at this point, some people say, "Yes, but what about age/carbon dating/datestamp etc ad nauseum. In every respect, to the limit of testing. Totally and utterly indistinguishable.
In this case, it can be argued there is an imperfect copy, or an altered copy. But yes, they both have the same memories and experiences. I have a feeling Mr C has drawn on inner aspects of Dale Cooper's personality and somehow augmented them, boosted them so they are to the fore.
Therefore, Mr C isn't Dale Cooper, he/it is a less than perfect copy, albeit with memories and experiences intact, plus a whole lot more stuff and, of course, the reversed fingerprints.
To go deeper with this, are you the same person you were 25 years ago? Many of your body's cells have been replaced, and your personality will have evolved, so you're definitely not exactly the same as you were 25 years ago. But are you still you? What makes any of us who we are?
Also, compare who you are now to if there was an exactly clone made of you 25 years ago which was somehow kept frozen in time. Which would more accurately be you, in relation to who you were 25 years ago?
Is it possible the answer is "neither"?
Is there even really a "you" to BE?
There's a very good argument that the person who wakes up in the morning isn't the same person who went to sleep the night before.
As for the "you", whether it exists, my view on that is, not in any real sense, as a unique, separable part of someone, such as a soul. Remove the experiences and knowledge, take out all the hierarchical stimulus/response systems, the glandular secretions and so on and all you have left is a bunch of cells. Nothing that couldn't be replicated with enough background knowledge.
OT from Twin Peaks but very much pertinent to Audrey's existential crisis and the question of who is the "real" Cooper, I believe we are at the threshold of something that could easily spell the end of most of our ideas and philosophies about self and even self awareness. I am positive that many of the objections to the idea of machine intelligence are because people, as a whole, don't want to believe we're nothing special, that we're just a set of routines running on a biological substrate.
Even then, it's most likely that a perfect copy would turn out with a slightly different personality. Twins often display similar traits, even when they're raised in different households. I believe it reinforces the idea that "self" is a slippery concept, since one twin is essentially a copy of the other.
One thing I've noticed is just how different the original doppelganger was (in final scene of series 2) compared with the older, Mr C doppelganger.
The original, younger doppelganger seemed far more primal, energetic. Quite manic. I guess there are many reasons why this could be: general age/maturity of being outside the lodge. Distance from BOB/the lodge. Learning of the need to fit in and not raise suspicion.
Just thinking aloud. I wonder if we'll see more erratic behaviour from Mr C, perhaps his true self will soon be revealed in a more ghastly form.
I think we will see more erratic behavior from Mr. C now, he was already taking a big risk going into that farm like that, just because he 'wanted' revenge on Ray.
That wasn't pure revenge. What about the coordinates?
Yeah, thats definitely true as well, but he rushed the way he was getting the coordinates and went head on into a lot of danger because he 'wanted' Ray, he could easily have not trapped himself in the farm and gotten a hold of Ray at some other time. The first things he is saying at that farm is, 'hey Ray, its your buddy', and 'I want him, Ray'..... In that situation things worked out for Mr. C and he knows of his exceptional abilities and how he is tougher than those 'breaking bad' people who are 'playing games'('what is this, kindergarten?, etc.), but those situations are not going to always work out, never do; putting yourself in danger like that should be more exception and out of necessity or desperation, not as a first option or a constant mode of activity...thats asking for trouble and defeat....
Given that he was shot and is now pretty much fine, it does beg the question of whether he can actually be killed.
One thing I've noticed is just how different the original doppelganger was (in final scene of series 2) compared with the older, Mr C doppelganger.
The original, younger doppelganger seemed far more primal, energetic. Quite manic. I guess there are many reasons why this could be: general age/maturity of being outside the lodge. Distance from BOB/the lodge. Learning of the need to fit in and not raise suspicion.
To be fair, in between the BL behavior and "how's Annie," we have "I need to brush my teeth," delivered just about how Mr. C. would.
That is very true actually, I'd forgotten about that line. I'd still like to see an enraged, mental-case Mr C at least once 🙂
Fire walk with 
