This thread rocks.
Nature seems to be an endless cascade of laminates of alternating chaos and order. A smooth round globe of earth that magnifies to a chaos system of weather which magnifies to a homogeneous and smooth ocean which magnifies to a chaotic frenzy of molecules bumping around which magnifies to a smooth shell of electrons orbiting nuclei..
Lately I've been entertained by a theory that has no need for a big bang. Instead we live on the 3 dimensional skin (event horizon) of a 4 dimensional black hole. Yup, it's a pretty happening place.
Lodge members being in an alternate or higher dimension works for me. They have the worm hole thing going for them.
So if you trace your left hand flat on paper (in 2 dimensions) there's no way to rotate it so that the left hand becomes a right hand unless you could pull it up into the 3rd dimension and flip it over. Then put it back down and you have its doppelganger, its opposite. And if you were able to pull your real 3d hand into 4d you could flip it, put it back into 3d and have two right hands. Mother/Experiment has her hands on the wrong arms. I don't think it's coincidence either, the whole reversal of asymmetry is kinda a big part of higher dimensional thinking. Theory has got legs.
This thread rocks.
Nature seems to be an endless cascade of laminates of alternating chaos and order. A smooth round globe of earth that magnifies to a chaos system of weather which magnifies to a homogeneous and smooth ocean which magnifies to a chaotic frenzy of molecules bumping around which magnifies to a smooth shell of electrons orbiting nuclei..
Lately I've been entertained by a theory that has no need for a big bang. Instead we live on the 3 dimensional skin (event horizon) of a 4 dimensional black hole. Yup, it's a pretty happening place.
Lodge members being in an alternate or higher dimension works for me. They have the worm hole thing going for them.
So if you trace your left hand flat on paper (in 2 dimensions) there's no way to rotate it so that the left hand becomes a right hand unless you could pull it up into the 3rd dimension and flip it over. Then put it back down and you have its doppelganger, its opposite. And if you were able to pull your real 3d hand into 4d you could flip it, put it back into 3d and have two right hands. Mother/Experiment has her hands on the wrong arms. I don't think it's coincidence either, the whole reversal of asymmetry is kinda a big part of higher dimensional thinking. Theory has got legs.
In my Opinion (so no flamethrowers, this isn't Okinawa) If you believe in anything else other than what you see, feel and can measure...you are believing in a higher power. Not Necessarily GOD per se, but a power or dimension outside of anything that can be scientifically explained, to help you order your universe.
If you believe you have actually visited a dimension outside of our universe, well then...need I continue?
Joseph - It's an interesting idea and maybe there's something to it. Far as I know, though, evidence points to the Big Bang. Could be what happened after resulted in a 4D black hole with us on the skin of it, though.
Jack - A difference in terms, maybe. I just think of it as the search for the instruction set to a Mechanistic Universe. A not entirely Deterministic Universe, since Heisenberg and Chaos put paid to that but at least certain overall trends could be inferred.
God - and the devil - are indeed in the details. This from an atheist.
Jack - most of what we have been discussing is pulling on scientific theorizing about other dimensions and the like. The Many Worlds hypothesis, or String Theory, etc... I haven't had the feeling even these ideas were necessarily being endorsed. We are talking about something at the limits of our knowledge, playing with ideas, and so on. It's fascinating to me how this weird stuff in Twin Peaks can be approached through scientific notions, while at the same time of course it could be approached through religious notions. The central thing is the mystery, and I would suggest that ignoring that is what would be reductive when it comes to experience. Experience is weird; it doesn't fit neatly into a scientistic box. This, too, from an atheist.
I would agree that something about the idea of the Big Bang has always bugged me. I want to know what was before that, I guess. I don't think the universe/everything can have a beginning in time unless God, really, so this is another area where I think our knowledge remains incomplete.
Ever experienced an alternate universe or different timeline?
This stuff is eating me alive...still.
Jack
Also, Jack - you started it : - )
And always will, I believe.
Thinking over my idea about the ultimate particle, I realized there's a huge flaw in it, so a further refinement...
Matter is localized distortion in spacetime. It makes more sense because it also allows for the effects of gravity to be a by product of mass, as is currently believed.
The old rubber sheet idea works but instead of being a smooth surface, there are imperfections arising from the creation of the Universe (that's an idea I got from Hawking, when he explained why the Universe is lumpy), which in turn caused more imperfections here and there. It's not greatly different from the basic idea; just the thought that the actual building blocks of matter may be spacetime itself hasn't, as yet, been considered.
The idea appeals to me because it's very simple and, since we know great complexity can come from simple beginnings, and overall it'd probably be the easiest way to get things started. Another thing occurred to me about it, too; if it's true, the Universe really is granular. Damned if I know how anyone would test for it in any meaningful way but it's a fun thing to consider.
About God...
The Planck Length theory of time is something I was happy to read about, since I used a similar idea in a story, long before I'd even heard of it. In my story, Jesus (yep, him) can step between these events to effectively stop time for anyone along there with him. Hey, it's fiction; I can write about Jesus if I want. If I ever get the thing finished and published, I guess I'll be getting death threats from aggrieved fundamentalists, since there are a few uncomplimentary things about God in there, too. Short version is, He exists and left everyone basically up shit creek.
As an aside - and I know it's been mentioned before - I would love to spend time and alcohol consumption with you guys. Outside my friends in RL, you're the most interesting and intelligent people it's been my good fortune to encounter.
Ever experienced an alternate universe or different timeline?
This stuff is eating me alive...still.
Jack
Also, Jack - you started it : - )
Oh sure, throw that back in my face...
It has been interesting to hear stories of this inter-dimensional travel mixed with theoretical physics and math to try and explain the plausible existence of other dimensions as applied to actual known laws of physics and their hard edged limitations.
But having said that...theoretical math is about as useful to me as a theoretical sandwich.
I find myself still hungry...
Jack
Also an atheist, but... I do believe in a "God". I just think he's some sort of fundamental force or harmonic that not only is the one unifying relationship that this whole mess is made up of, but even more it's a force that compels this structure of reality. He's not so much some white dude that hates masturbation.
Jack - This is interesting - "If you believe in anything else other than what you see, feel and can measure...you are believing in a higher power?" - would this mean that God, or the belief of God, evolves as we develop new scientific observations and sophisticated instruments? Does God itself mature? Newton used to glimpse god with his light refracting prism, but God now resides behind the veil of black holes? Does God retreat, or do we cast him away? I like it. Dovetails nicely with my sneaking suspicion that there is no smallest Russian nesting doll in the game of discovery, whenever we humans find the next fundamental bit of reality, another smaller resolution of reality is actually created. Like maybe atoms were the smallest things until we found them. Then they split into quarks. As long as we're wagging our tongues here.
Big Bang. Maybe Julie Loader was on to something. Seems like a lot of shoehorning to make the slipper fit.
Sam - "Matter is localized distortion in spacetime" I like that. I've always pictured matter as crystallized energy. Those aren't mutually exclusive models, both make me happy.
Cæmeron - "It's fascinating to me how this weird stuff in Twin Peaks can be approached through scientific notions, while at the same time of course it could be approached through religious notions. The central thing is the mystery" YES! I keep thinking about the death of a tulpa, specifically the one where that crusty grey egg was floating and then that slimy ass bit of goop came dribbling out the bottom. It's the GD mystery of the whole thing! I think I said aloud, "No way this is an allegory for God and Satan, right?! Please don't be." But this whole scientific angle has really scratched that itch and given me a depth of appreciation for the vast swaths of interpretations possible. I'm sure Reddit is neck deep in their own jack rabbit hole of theory and interpretive frameworks. As much as I find certain orange people utterly appalling, I am uplifted by the people and artistry of TPtR with so much insight into the human condition - life is found within the mystery.
Also an atheist, but... I do believe in a "God". I just think he's some sort of fundamental force or harmonic that not only is the one unifying relationship that this whole mess is made up of, but even more it's a force that compels this structure of reality. He's not so much some white dude that hates masturbation.
Ever read Spinoza? God or Nature, same thing. The one substance has infinite attributes, but we only have access to two: thought and matter. Each individual is a mode of the one substance (God/Nature), etc. Total heresy, of course. "God" is all over the text of the Ethics, but he was pretty much taken to be an atheist from the get-go, so this is what your remark made me think of.
Interesting subject. Re: God/Nature. I'm an atheist, that being said, I have always found spirituality within nature. I feel a sense of calmness and tranquility within it.
Also, on the early subject of dreams (sorry, late for the party here...bare with me...), I will say that I've had some strange dreams including ones where I am a different person (and I have been multiple different people in various different dreams; whatever sex/gender too) - this has never bothered me in the slightest.
I've also had some rare occasions of sleep drunkenness (and this in itself is kind of interesting to experience) as dreaming/memories are so closely related that it's such a strange phenomenon to wake up and not have your memories. Scary, but strange! (I'm happy to say this doesn't happen often). It's proper Dougie Jones stuff.
Also, on a similar subject, I was reading this (sorry, I don't wish to advertise this either, that, and it's a blog...) https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/we-have-souls-and-so-do-crows/
I just wanted to share that as I've enjoyed reading it and I think it's relatable to this content. Outside of dreams (and relating to this article), I can also share this experience when I got to know my father, and discovered how both of us are very mischievous people (for the record, didn't know my father beforehand) and it was kind of weird to sort of...have a similar personality to him. To someone I didn't have a relationship with, only DNA.
Big Bang. Maybe Julie Loader was on to something. Seems like a lot of shoehorning to make the slipper fit.
Thank you ☺
When I first heard this theory in science class, I was waiting for the teacher to say " Nah, only joking!"
We're usually told stuff like this because it's their best guess, until something else is found. Expansion theory is the latest, I think?
Big Bang. Maybe Julie Loader was on to something. Seems like a lot of shoehorning to make the slipper fit.
Thank you ☺
When I first heard this theory in science class, I was waiting for the teacher to say " Nah, only joking!"
We're usually told stuff like this because it's their best guess, until something else is found. Expansion theory is the latest, I think?
You do understand what "Theory" means in a scientific context? Expansion, or properly, Cosmic Inflation doesn't do away with the Big Bang at all, in fact, it's an observation on observable phenomena related to the Big Bang.
Big Bang. Maybe Julie Loader was on to something. Seems like a lot of shoehorning to make the slipper fit.
Thank you ☺
When I first heard this theory in science class, I was waiting for the teacher to say " Nah, only joking!"
We're usually told stuff like this because it's their best guess, until something else is found. Expansion theory is the latest, I think?
My understanding is that it works from the notion/observation that the universe is expanding. If we presume such expansion moving backwards in time, we reach a point some 13 billion years ago where everything would be condensed to the same point. This would be where the Big Bang is theorized. I'm not astro-physicist, though, and maybe someone on here understands it better than me.
Regardless, what tends to bother me is the thought that this was the beginning in some kind of absolute sense. Rather, it would seem it is merely as far back as we can go, and there is a difference. And then I am all for asking questions we can't answer and/or speculating.
Interesting subject. Re: God/Nature. I'm an atheist, that being said, I have always found spirituality within nature. I feel a sense of calmness and tranquility within it.
Well, for Spinoza, Nature is the Everything. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough about that. Still, it is interesting to think about Spinozism in the context of our modern world, with all of this technology and so on, as opposed to when he was writing several hundred years ago.
ELECTRICITY
Also, on the early subject of dreams (sorry, late for the party here...bare with me...), I will say that I've had some strange dreams including ones where I am a different person (and I have been multiple different people in various different dreams; whatever sex/gender too) - this has never bothered me in the slightest.
That's fascinating. I am always me in my dreams, I think. Call me Charlie.
I've also had some rare occasions of sleep drunkenness (and this in itself is kind of interesting to experience) as dreaming/memories are so closely related that it's such a strange phenomenon to wake up and not have your memories. Scary, but strange! (I'm happy to say this doesn't happen often). It's proper Dougie Jones stuff.
Are you talking about blacking out/losing time? Sure, there is that. Weirder to me is when I have a dream so realistic that I wake up unsure as to whether it was a dream or memory. Usually I can sort that out, but sometimes I have had to ask someone.
Also, on a similar subject, I was reading this (sorry, I don't wish to advertise this either, that, and it's a blog...) https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/we-have-souls-and-so-do-crows/
Kind of interesting article, but too facile. The problem of personal identity is fascinating, and the author here does more or less get to the crux of it - is there something about me that underlies all of the changes and remains constant? This would be the soul, I take it; some kind of substantial reality of the self beneath the surface level differing. You can approach that in terms of essences, but oh shit now we have to think about whether things have essences... You can point to someone with brain damage or what have you, and say they seem like the same person, but what about when they don't? An ex of mine's grandmother had a stroke some years back, and all of the sudden this woman who had been incredibly sharp could hardly complete a thought. You want to say, "she's still in there" or something like that, but to what degree is that just our horror at the contrary?
If there is no soul, then the coherence of the self would rely on memory, sure, but perhaps even more fundamentally on habit. You can take that all the way into the biology - the heart in the habit of beating, the brain in the habit of making such and such moves and so on.
But I do think Twin Peaks is probably better approached with a notion of the soul, to get at the doppelgangers and tulpas, etc. Also, if we are thinking about a self that cuts across multiple realities, potentially, that would lead in the direction of the soul. I find that interesting to think about. If there are Many Worlds, then there would be a least a bunch of them where there would be a different version of Caemeron Crain. Does it make sense to put it that way? Would there be some connection between me and the Caemerons in other realities? Could there perhaps be an experience of that connection that occurs through dreams?
I just wanted to share that as I've enjoyed reading it and I think it's relatable to this content. Outside of dreams (and relating to this article), I can also share this experience when I got to know my father, and discovered how both of us are very mischievous people (for the record, didn't know my father beforehand) and it was kind of weird to sort of...have a similar personality to him. To someone I didn't have a relationship with, only DNA.
Yeah. I have a cousin that I met for the first time several years ago. We clicked instantly, have similar tastes in things, etc. Genetics is likely more determinative than we would like it to be, with our thoughts about human equality and so on
Fire walk with