Hello all ?
So I was looking back at notes from a Mark Frost interview that I posted here before ( http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-season-3-forum/mark-frost-at-austin-film-festival/), mainly to see if there was anything that I hadn't picked up that warranted a little research.
I realised I hadn't really thought about Mark Frost mentioning the influence, for him, of the Orpheus myth on Part 17.
Looking up the myth on wikipedia the following parts caught my eye:
"...Orpheus travelled to the underworld. His music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone, who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth on one condition: he should walk in front of her and not look back until they both had reached the upper world. He set off with Eurydice following, and, in his anxiety, as soon as he reached the upper world, he turned to look at her, forgetting that both needed to be in the upper world, and she vanished for the second time, but now forever."
"Other ancient writers, however, speak of Orpheus' visit to the underworld in a more negative light; according to Phaedrus in Plato's Symposium,[42] the infernal gods only "presented an apparition" of Eurydice to him. In fact, Plato's representation of Orpheus is that of a coward, as instead of choosing to die in order to be with the one he loved, he instead mocked the gods by trying to go to Hades to bring her back alive. Since his love was not "true"—he did not want to die for love—he was actually punished by the gods, first by giving him only the apparition of his former wife in the underworld, and then by being killed by women."
Now obviously it isn't a match-for-match connection - Laura wasn't Cooper's wife for example - but then I suppose that's the difference between influence and plagarism. But what I did find interesting was that idea that the hero is punished. Laura might not be an apparition as such, but just the same she disappears, giving her a sense of unreality.
But what really strikes me is the idea of the hero's love not being true. What drives Coop? A desire for evil to not win? White knight syndrome? He is not in love with Laura but there is a form of obsession. Obsession, I would argue, is not and cannot be true love. Also, the hero not wanting to die for love: 25 years of his life were taken from him - a symbolic death perhaps? Was part of Coop's desire to change the past a need to take back what was taken fron him - to reclaim the life that was lost?
Of course (as far as we know) Coop is not dead and therefore not killed by women. But I do like equating the desolate tone of the finale with Carrie Page - has Coop's soul finally been anihilated (hence Richard)? Was Carrie ultimately the final moment of anihilation?
And didn't Coop look back at Laura just before she disapeared? Whilst walking uphill (i.e. up out of the underworld)? That's a very nice little touch if so.
I'm not claiming anything as concrete or any kind of insight here, but they were just some connections that I thought, at the least, were very interesting to think about.
What are your thoughts?
Not much to say here, If Mark actually used the Greek Mythology of Orpheus as a template for the ending of Twin Peaks, well then we can all rest our hat on that and call it a day. However we have the big problem of the simultaneous timelines and things trying to work themselves out from February 23rd, 1989 on. Once the Butterfly took effect in 1989, the timelines have been trying to fix themselves and get everything straight again since that point. In the Orpheus, he tried to save her in real time, in Twin Peaks he went one step further and tried to save her by going back in time...
Jack
Yeah, I remember talking about this back when it aired. The allusion is pretty clear (yes, Cooper looks back, if you were expressing uncertainty about that), but I am not sure what to do with it beyond pointing it out. Would be curious to hear the thoughts of others about this.
Yeah, appreciate it's something that's been addressed before, but must admit I hadn't seen those threads and got carried away with my excitement. I certainly think its interesting to consider if you're interested in Coop's psychology during those last couple of episodes - at the very least it helps to put a little more meat on the bones.
Not much to say here, If Mark actually used the Greek Mythology of Orpheus as a template for the ending of Twin Peaks, well then we can all rest our hat on that and call it a day. However we have the big problem of the simultaneous timelines and things trying to work themselves out from February 23rd, 1989 on. Once the Butterfly took effect in 1989, the timelines have been trying to fix themselves and get everything straight again since that point. In the Orpheus, he tried to save her in real time, in Twin Peaks he went one step further and tried to save her by going back in time...
Jack
I did say influence rather than template to be fair. More for Coop's psychology and possible consequences of his actions than anything else.
Not much to say here, If Mark actually used the Greek Mythology of Orpheus as a template for the ending of Twin Peaks, well then we can all rest our hat on that and call it a day. However we have the big problem of the simultaneous timelines and things trying to work themselves out from February 23rd, 1989 on. Once the Butterfly took effect in 1989, the timelines have been trying to fix themselves and get everything straight again since that point. In the Orpheus, he tried to save her in real time, in Twin Peaks he went one step further and tried to save her by going back in time...
Jack
I did say influence rather than template to be fair. More for Coop's psychology and possible consequences of his actions than anything else.
How does that saying go?
Those who do not learn from History (especially when dabbling in time travel) are doomed to repeat it or something to that extent?
Ah Cooper/Richard/Dougie person, sometimes you just need to punt!
Jack
This is the other topic with old paintings and extracts from Jean Cocteau movies, even quoted in interviews by David Lyncg :
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/cooper-leading-laura/
This is the other topic with old paintings and extracts from Jean Cocteau movies, even quoted in interviews by David Lyncg :
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/cooper-leading-laura/
I have to imagine that both Lynch and Frost developed storylines based on the Greek Mythologies, I mean these are the best stories ever told, behind the bible. The bible BTW, has a lot of history in early greek and roman culture so maybe these are just the best stories EVER!
If they just found a way to get me to digest another greek mythos or biblical parable then Kudo's to them! I didn't know it or realize it while it was happening but now that I am through it, Like most people, I can't believe what just happened.
If you can tell me a story I already know, only disguise it so that I don't recognize it...then you are a storytelling genius.
This is a far cry from my previous post where I was so mad at them my head was steaming...I only hope I am transcribing some actual prophecy to these 2 dynamic writers, otherwise it appears like they got lucky, more than anything else.
Just keeping it all in perspective...
Jack
Yeah, appreciate it's something that's been addressed before, but must admit I hadn't seen those threads and got carried away with my excitement. I certainly think its interesting to consider if you're interested in Coop's psychology during those last couple of episodes - at the very least it helps to put a little more meat on the bones.
I actually wasn't even thinking of threads on here, though I see one has been linked to, and there may be others I am not remembering. I was more directly thinking of a conversation I had with those I watched with, etc.
Regardless, it's an interesting connection, and if you have more thoughts about it in terms of putting meat on the bones I think that's a discussion worth having. So far, I have found my thoughts don't go much further than noting the allusion/resonance or what have you.
Yeah, appreciate it's something that's been addressed before, but must admit I hadn't seen those threads and got carried away with my excitement. I certainly think its interesting to consider if you're interested in Coop's psychology during those last couple of episodes - at the very least it helps to put a little more meat on the bones.
I actually wasn't even thinking of threads on here, though I see one has been linked to, and there may be others I am not remembering. I was more directly thinking of a conversation I had with those I watched with, etc.
Regardless, it's an interesting connection, and if you have more thoughts about it in terms of putting meat on the bones I think that's a discussion worth having. So far, I have found my thoughts don't go much further than noting the allusion/resonance or what have you.
One thing I do think is worth thinking about, even if it comes to nothing, is the idea that, like Orpheus, Coop is being punished by higher forces for a transgresion (altering time by attempting to save Laura) and reclaim the 25 years taken from him by being held in the Black Lodge. It goes against whatever plans the Fireman/Mike/possibly the Arm had for Laura, and it is not an action of true love but of foolish deception of self-heroism (white knight syndrome) and self interest (preventing himself from being trapped in the Lodge in the first place.) The punishment of coursr would be the failure of heroism, and the stripping away of Coop's identity as Richard. I certainly think its an interesting idea for consideration at any rate.
Yes, Cooper's hubris. One thing that has been sticking in my craw is how Jeffries told him he would find Judy there, before sending him back to 1989. Perhaps the "extreme negative force" in question is Laura's fire ("When a fire like this starts, it is very hard to put out"), in which case it would make sense to take her to the Fireman, if we read that as "firefighter" - but is that where she goes, or is she taken along the way, by Judy, or whomever we might speculate about here. Is the Fireman to be trusted? When he appears to Cooper is S02e01 he tells Cooper to "think of him as a friend" - he does not say that he is a friend. And, he does appear in the Red Room in the season 2 finale...
So, maybe these forces aren't so distinct. Perhaps they are "one and the same" or two sides of the same coin in some sense, like the Greek gods who help Orpheus. What if he had not looked back? And why does he? Presumably from a lack of faith, or a feeling of uncertainty; a desire to make sure that things are going to plan. What if he had trusted? Is there a parallel lack of trust we can point to with regard to Cooper? I think there is certainly hubris...
Then how to read Part 18 and Carrie Page? If we take Cooper to have failed in woods, when Laura disappears, this would seem to be him trying again. He's caught in a loop. Is it future or is it past when we see him in the Lodge here, and Leland ultimately tells him to Find Laura? How to order the following events: 1) Laura disappearing from the woods; 2) Laura getting sucked out of the Red Room; 3) the Laura orb in Part 8; 4) Carrie Page's scream; 5) the end of FWWM with Laura framed by angels and crying?
(N.B. I put them in the order I have been more or less taking them, while also thinking that a normal temporal succession is probably off-base)
How to order the following events: 1) Laura disappearing from the woods; 2) Laura getting sucked out of the Red Room; 3) the Laura orb in Part 8; 4) Carrie Page's scream; 5) the end of FWWM with Laura framed by angels and crying?
(N.B. I put them in the order I have been more or less taking them, while also thinking that a normal temporal succession is probably off-base)
Ok not to get crazy here but this is my understanding of their actual place in the timeline of Twin Peaks:
1. Is where time is broken by Cooper and the "Butterfly Effect" goes into Place...We all know it as February 23, 1989.
2. Is a relative unknown as we don't know how time works in the Lodges and Red Room. There is certainly a reason why Cooper/Dougie/Richard looked like he hadn't aged anywhere near 25 years, yet everyone else had. If you buy into Cooper going back in time and saving Laura from her death then this also had to take place in 1989, when time was broken by Cooper.
3. This seemed to have happened between 1945 and 1956 as an answer from the fireman to the newly created evil of BOB/Judy by the Atom Bomb.
4. I believe the scream is where all the worlds, timelines and portals collide in our time. 2016-2017. This was also the "Butterfly Effect" closing as everything was set back into some sort of acceptable order by the universe.
5. Is also an unknown because it didn't happen in our world but my guess is that it occurred in 1989 when she died. Then of course it no longer occurred when Cooper broke time and saved her, thus no angels...only a dead guy with a bullet hole in his head in 2016/2017.
But the timeline that Cooper broke when he went back in time looks more like this:
3. - Will always be the start and it was before Cooper broke the timeline.
1. 1989 - Timeline is Broken
2. 1989 - Laura is sucked out of the Red Room by the Broken timeline to become Carrie Page
5.1989 - Is when it happened the first time. Now it is removed from History, Like Laura
4. 2016-2017 - The universe sets things straight and the Judy Portal is removed from the Palmer/Tremond House when Carrie/Laura screams in recognition of her other self.
Thats the best I can do, hope it helps.
Yeah, I like the idea of two different orders, as you suggest. Maybe we should put the FWWM scene aside for the moment. I am not sure it is erased - "I am dead and yet I live" indicates to me that all of this happens, and that's part of the fracturing of time; it's a paradox - but it is the hardest thing to try and fit in, and from a separate work than the others, in a sense.
I guess a lot hangs on how we read the scene in Part 8. I never liked the idea that the Fireman was "creating" Laura, though it is definitely true that it reads as a response to seeing the Bob orb and so on... After the finale, I started playing with the idea that Laura disappears because she has been sucked into the portal by the Fireman, and that the stuff with the orb etc. is showing her then being deposited as Carrie Page. Insofar as we are talking about Lodge stuff, the idea that it was 1945 holds little weight for me.
If not that, why does she disappear/who is responsible for this, and where does she go? I don't think there is going to be a definitive answer to that, but it would seem to be the question around which to build some significant theorizing, one way or another.
I've also played with the idea that the three screams - in the woods, in the Lodge, on the street - are in some sense one scream. Recalling that in the end of season two, there are two times in the Lodge where Laura tells Cooper, "I will see you again in 25 years, meanwhile..." Once, what follows is that still moment with her hands posed. The other time, it is the scream. So Laura is either at peace with the angels [oh, look, I did bring that back in!] or trapped in the loop of her trauma. And it's Cooper's fault. So the question (for Cooper) is whether and how he can make the end of FWWM the end of the story. Or, perhaps we might say that he cut off that possible ending by hubristically trying to "fix things"; failing to recognize that nothing can erase trauma - the best we can do is be kind.
Then, we could read Laura's whisper as perhaps a reiteration of the line she whispered to Cooper in the original run: "My father killed me." But now he thinks that he has stopped that from happening, and so reacts with a befuddled discomfort. He did, but he didn't. She is dead and yet she lives. Time has been splintered, realities proliferate, and Laura's scream transverses the many worlds. Or something like that 🙂
Two questions to brainstorm, pulling it back towards the inaugural topic: 1) Where did Laura go when she disappeared in the woods, and why, etc?; 2) Where was Cooper planning to take her in the first place (i.e., what does he mean by "home")?
The Laura angel scene is possibly the most emotional scene for me of the whole thing. It's like all the fighting and pain is now finished. Everything that worried and wounded in life can be let go and there's a just this sublime peace to it. I hope I feel that way when I go.
The Laura angel scene is possibly the most emotional scene for me of the whole thing. It's like all the fighting and pain is now finished. Everything that worried and wounded in life can be let go and there's a just this sublime peace to it. I hope I feel that way when I go.
Yeah, that's the ending we want, right? How do we get that as the ending?
Fire walk with