Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
Hi All,
I'm not referring to two different bodies.
Rather, I mean basic, core personalities.
It is my opinion they are dissimilar... maybe an amalgamation... or one, perchance, dreaming the other.
Or maybe Dale Cooper was still Dale Cooper
Further, I think the answer to this question has profound ramifications as to what the show means.
=:-O
- /< /\ /> -
No, we can't all agree. Sorry chum.
Why do we have to do this "can we all agree" thing? Let's just discuss it.
But I do agree that they are purposefully different, and the whole affect of the scenes he is in in Odessa are filmed and directed in such a way as to underscore that. Very little music. Lots of silent space. His body language is quite different. Yet he is not Mr. C. at all. He's still got goodness in him, but the joy is stilled.
I'm not sure it matters whether he is RICHARD or AGENT COOPER (as he still thinks of himself), he is certainly changed.
Same: 1
Diff: 1
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
I also spent time thinking about this point...
My best guess about such personality changes is that characters behavior are mixed up in a "dreamy" way.
Let me link this post to better explain my own interpretation (detail in point 7):
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/dscuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/laura-is-the-dreamer/
Hi Marco,
Got a "404" message on that link, sorry.
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... Poetically, I'm partial to the bleakest reading, whereby we discover that the entirety of the "Dale Cooper vs. Mr. C" was nothing more than a "heroes vs. villains" psychodrama in/of/for "the Real Cooper," whose identity will forever be unknowable. Maybe it's Dale, maybe it's Richard, maybe it was all a dream.
Running Total:
Same: 1
Diff: 2
Undec: 0
Hi Bad Fan (where you been? :-)),
Thanks, as usual, for the comments. 😉
I'm putting you in the "Same" category based on the excerpt from your post above. (Notice, though, the newly added category of Undecided. Again, based on the excerpt from your post above, if you want to be moved, let me know! 😉
Regarding your observations: Do you think that only "multiplied characters" have nuggets? (Seeds, monads, - I'm going to call them nuggets, 'cause that's what they look like to me - and if we ever get to Chantal we can talk about her McNugget soul. ;-)) I don't. I think everyone in Twin Peaks-verse can be atomized to elemental metal - whether they be base - iron, tin - precious - gold, silver, or dangerous and violent - lead and uranium.
And that they can be alchemically transmuted by the Magician - who longs to see. 😉
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HEY! My undecided vote doesn't count?
SMH, tough crowd.
Brandy,
is there an "inconvenient" category? I'll join you there.
Their personalities seem quite different, just like FBI badges, the RR's signage, attitudes about dead bodies in chairs etc. seem different in these two realities.
Same: 1
Diff: 2
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hey KingDaddy,
Thanks for the input. 😉
- /< /\ /> -
... Poetically, I'm partial to the bleakest reading, whereby we discover that the entirety of the "Dale Cooper vs. Mr. C" was nothing more than a "heroes vs. villains" psychodrama in/of/for "the Real Cooper," whose identity will forever be unknowable. Maybe it's Dale, maybe it's Richard, maybe it was all a dream.
Running Total:
Same: 1
Diff: 2
Undec: 0
Hi Bad Fan (where you been? :-)),
Thanks, as usual, for the comments. 😉
I'm putting you in the "Same" category based on the excerpt from your post above. (Notice, though, the newly added category of Undecided. Again, based on the excerpt from your post above, if you want to be moved, let me know! 😉
Regarding your observations: Do you think that only "multiplied characters" have nuggets? (Seeds, monads, - I'm going to call them nuggets, 'cause that's what they look like to me - and if we ever get to Chantal we can talk about her McNugget soul. ;-)) I don't. I think everyone in Twin Peaks-verse can be atomized to elemental metal - whether they be base - iron, tin - precious - gold, silver, or dangerous and violent - lead and uranium.
And that they can be alchemically transmuted by the Magician - who longs to see. 😉
- /< /\ /> -
HEY! My undecided vote doesn't count?
SMH, tough crowd.
Brandy,
is there an "inconvenient" category? I'll join you there.
Yes, let's start that category.
I think Cooper woke up as Richard the same way he woke up as Dougie. Just a little more awake, but still trying to make his way in a world he doesn't fully grasp, trying to fulfill a mission he is not entirely sure about. All he knows is he must find Laura and get her home. Richard was probably living as an accountant or something in Odessa before Cooper replaced him. Richard was having an affair with someone named Linda, the same way Dougie was cheating on Janey-E.
Richard was manufactured, just like Dougie, probably by Judy/Diane, to keep Cooper from fully awakening into this new timeline created when he saved Laura's life.
Vote: Cooper
Same: 2
Diff: 2
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Bryant,
So you think Richard and Linda were tulpas just waiting for someone to switch their bodies out? People-place-holder pods! 😉
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I think Richard is what happened to Dale Cooper after he interfered with the history of Laura Palmer. So, the same guy as before but different.
Everything changes and after a while he doesn't even notice.
I agree - there’s a massive change in Coop's personality, and Richard is more like a weird amalgamation of the three 'versions' of Cooper we've seen before.
I feel like the change from one Coop to another occurred specifically as he and Diane crossed over the 430 mile mark, at the electricity pylons – did anyone else notice the way he was driving? When Coop had just woken up from his coma and was driving Janey E and Sonny Jim to the casino, Sonny Jim commented on his great driving and I laughed because the steering wheel was going all over the place. When Coop and Diane are driving in the daytime, the wheel is moving the same way, then as soon as they cross over at the pylons and it’s night, the wheel is noticeably completely still.
The 430 mile mark also looked to me like the place where Bad Coop crashed his car and managed to prevent himself getting pulled back into the lodge, meaning the real Dougie went in instead. This would imply it’s a magical place where people and doppelgangers can be swapped over or relocated, facilitated by the electricity.
Could it be that Good Coop actually went back to Janey E and 'Richard' is the newest Tulpa created from the hair of Good Coop and the seed from Mr C? It would help explain why he acts like he does, with aspects of all the Coops - looking to help Laura like Good Coop, emotionlessly shooting the cowboys like Mr C would, and the kind of blankness of the other tulpa, Dougie.
I love reading everyone's theories, even though none of us will ever really know!
Maybe not the most popular view, but I think Richard was real and psychologically damaged and created Dale Cooper in his mind to be a hero of sorts. Maybe to go try save as many women from domestic abuse which I think this season has ultimately been about. And in Richard's mind, he is saving Laura Palmer as Dale Cooper. Totally going with the psychological vs science fiction theory but that is what Lynch does to me.....
Vote: Different
Same: 2
Diff: 3
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Mike,
So, Richard is in our world, imagining Cooper?
Richard as Walter Mitty, fantasizing Dale Cooper! That's not bad either, considering Walter Mitty's daydreams don't really do too well, including dying by firing squad! 😉
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Vote: ??????? (Fireman?)
Same: 2
Diff: 3
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Cyndee,
Oh, believe me, I never thought we would all agree - guess the "All" in my title is misleading and poorly chosen. Bad, bad, baaadd binoculars!
And, of course, the whole thread was set up to discuss the idea. 🙂
Anyway, should I put you down as Dale or undecided? Maybe even abstention. Hard to tell, really! 😉
(with apologies to Cheap Trick)
I've had enough, I'm tired of waiting
The time has come to pass
Why do you do what you do to me
Why can't you say what you want to say
Is it not worth investigating
I thought (i'd been harassed)
Why do you go if you want to stay
How will I know what you mean to say
Undoubtedly I'm all over you
It's not that easy baby
It's not that hard to tell
It's not that easy baby
Life is hell but I'm doing fine.
It's hard to tell
I'm not good at contemplating
The odds are it won't last
Why do you do what you do to me
When will I hear what I want to hear
Been so long anticipating
You put me to the test
Why won't you say what you want to say
How will I know if you mean to stay
Undeniably I'm all over you
It's hard to tell
I do it well
It's hard to tell
Hard to tell
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Posted this on another thread, maybe it fits here better:
As I read it, a person is made up of three elements:
1. their name
2. their appearance
3. their story
These elements can be combined differently after specific key scenes (e.g. Cooper and Diane crossing the 430 mile line). Therefore, what we have seen in the DianeLinda/CooperRichard part could actually be a continuation of some other story line (Becky/Steven, Audrey/Charlie?) with characters called Richard and Linda portrayed by Laura Dern and Kyle MacLachlan. It happens in real life (dreams) and it has happened before in Lynch's works.
Not sure what it means, although it does provide an interesting change of perspective.
Hi Bryant,
So you think Richard and Linda were tulpas just waiting for someone to switch their bodies out? People-place-holder pods! ?
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I think so. And I think the Linda tulpa is in the form of Diane, while the real Judy-infected Diane is out in the world wreaking havoc. The perfect set-up for Season 4: Richard and Linda, a couple of confused people from Odessa, battle evil Judy for the redemption of Laura Palmer's soul. Bob and Judy are the two birds. Cooper and Diane took out Bob. They crossed the 430 threshold and become Richard and Linda. Richard and Linda will take out Judy. The Fireman's messages are fulfilled, and the Phonograph Sound, which I believe represents Fear, will be finally driven out of the house.
One and the same.
Coop went back into the Red Room in Part 17 after his doppleganger was killed by Lucy (Who saw that coming btw? Amazing!). 25 years' experience or not, I don't think any human's coming back out of there without a doppleganger each time. Difference is Coop has had long enough in there to be able to hone that power and he has had Philip Gerard/MIKE as his ally. So this time they are one entity.
'Richard' and 'Linda' are dreams set by Judy once Coop has entered the dream world to throw Coop off scent. But it only works with Diane. Important to note Coop never refers to himself as Richard. He heeded the Fireman's advice - 'remember', 'two birds one stone'. Diane is not strong enough to avoid the disorientation/being lost in the dream. She also realises Coop is not Coop alone during the sex scene. This makes her want to disappear inside the dream. The manner of Coop during that part especially evokes Mr C.
Glitches continue to occur, like the two guns taken/three guns in the fryer at Judy's Diner, because there are two Coopers outside the Lodges again.
The long road trip was there as a test - the tension was there precisely because nothing was happened, not in spite of that. Judy was in hiding because Laura is the one, that is why all was quiet.
Laura was taken at the same time she was pulled out of the Red Room. She was placed in the 'dream'. But by whom? Not necessarily Judy. This could have been Lodge spirits' doing and for good, to find Judy.
I believe Judy was there in the Palmer house. The Tremonds were allies or intermediaries to Coop and Laura, not enemies. The way to battle Judy is not to enter the house (recalling Sarah's warning to Hawk) but to remember. The Tremonds understand the universe needs both good and evil to exist in balance, but that a reset is required to undo the evil caused by the atom bomb.
'What year is it?' - didn't Jeffries also say that in FWWM?
Ok so I've gone right down the rabbit hole now. Don't even know if any of that makes sense.
Basically I don't think it's over is the message. Which I think is the point - an eternal struggle.
I think Richard is what happened to Dale Cooper after he interfered with the history of Laura Palmer. So, the same guy as before but different.
Everything changes and after a while he doesn't even notice.
Vote: Same
Same: 3
Diff: 3
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Sam,
Interesting. That brings to mind two questions:
I infer from your response that Cooper is being punished by someone. Who? Or do you think it was just a kind of accidental science experiment gone awry?
Since you apparently agree Cooper's personality has changed, too, did the change have anything to do at all with Mr. C?
Guess that's three questions! 😉
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Fire walk with 
