Can We All Agree that Dale and Richard Cooper Are Two Different People?  

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(@ric_bissell)
Deputy

Hi All,

I'm not referring to two different bodies.

Rather, I mean basic, core personalities.

It is my opinion they are dissimilar... maybe an amalgamation...  or one, perchance, dreaming the other.

Or maybe Dale Cooper was still Dale Cooper

Further, I think the answer to this question has profound ramifications as to what the show means.

=:-O

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

Quote
Posted : 06/09/2017 11:11 am
(@seattle-swede)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Ric Bissell

Hi All,

I'm not referring to two different bodies.

Rather, I mean basic, core personalities.

It is my opinion they are dissimilar... maybe an amalgamation...  or one, perchance, dreaming the other.

Or maybe Cooper was still Cooper

Further, I think the answer to this question has profound ramifications as to what the show means.

=:-O

- /< /\ /> -

Move this person straight up to detective.

This has been my feeling from the onset.  Talk about the stupid little things that set off a conviction: the cars.  For me, the '63 or '63&1/2 Ford grabbed me, and I knew instantly that it was chosen for a specific reason, not because it was a neat car.  

That got me to looking at motel details, road signs, clothing, etc.  Ultimately, MacLachlan's behavior on screen.  Utterly, undeniably different persons. 

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:14 am
(@chris_gorgon)
RR Diner Patron

I'm not sure what's being proposed here.  

Clearly Richard is an identity within the Odessa universe and not just a cover name.  

But I think claiming Cooper is fully consumed by it is a tough row to hoe based on what we see.  He's confused by Diane/Linda's note, identifies as an FBI agent, remembers his mission, understands that Carrie = Laura, etc.  Compare this to Diane, who becomes lost in the Linda identity. 

The direction given to KM was that it was a harder version of Cooper, and I think that jibes with what we saw onscreen...he was still Cooper but with Richard creeping in.  

As I said the other day, I think it's interesting to consider that Dale's recent experience with holding onto/reclaiming his identity may have built up his psychic muscles and helped resist the shift.  

And again, I have a hard time believing that the Odessa universe is any more 'real' than the standard TP universe since we see some strange reality shifts in Odessa and end on a supernatural note. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 11:46 am
(@badalamenti-fan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Subalpine Fir
Posted by: Ric Bissell

Hi All,

I'm not referring to two different bodies.

Rather, I mean basic, core personalities.

It is my opinion they are dissimilar... maybe an amalgamation...  or one, perchance, dreaming the other.

Or maybe Cooper was still Cooper

Further, I think the answer to this question has profound ramifications as to what the show means.

=:-O

- /< /\ /> -

Move this person straight up to detective.

This has been my feeling from the onset.  Talk about the stupid little things that set off a conviction: the cars.  For me, the '63 or '63&1/2 Ford grabbed me, and I knew instantly that it was chosen for a specific reason, not because it was a neat car.  

That got me to looking at motel details, road signs, clothing, etc.  Ultimately, MacLachlan's behavior on screen.  Utterly, undeniably different persons. 

Thanks, Ric, for acknowledging the range of possibilities amid the din of interpretive certainty from some quarters.

It seems everyone will find their own answer. For my money, the germinal seeds ( "monads?")  that we learned "tulpas" are created from/ reduced to seem to suggest that  each of the multiplied characters we've seen share some kind of essence... I felt this was underscored when Diane's/Linda's and Dale's/Richard's sex scene shaded over into something decidedly horrifying (I couldn't stop thinking of Laura Dern's repeated rapes in Wild at Heart ...)

   ... Poetically, I'm partial to the bleakest reading, whereby we discover that the entirety of the  "Dale Cooper vs. Mr. C" was nothing more than a "heroes vs. villains" psychodrama in/of/for "the Real Cooper," whose identity will forever be unknowable.  Maybe it's Dale, maybe it's Richard, maybe it was all a dream. Maybe, in an era of nuclear proliferation and cataclysmic weather patterns, all we can do is whistle in the dark...  

My takeaway:  the psychoanalytical themes of trauma and grief, mapped back onto the entire scope of the series and film on a scale at once personal (Laura's "family of origin," Cooper's self construction) and existential/ecological (i.e., living under the strain of certain death, both at the level of the organism and the species...)

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:52 am
(@b-randy)
Chief Moderator

I can't say that we all agree.  I'm not sure I agree.  But I also don't disagree.

If he was still Cooper, his brain got seriously fried by that fork in the outlet bit. Or maybe by the passing in and out of the lodge cuz he did not act like himself or a real Fed at all.

If he wasn't Cooper but actually Richard, his brain got fried by........ too much fry oil? He believes himself to be Cooper and wants to play Cooper and is really just a crazy person going around flashing a goofy badge and driving unsuspecting women to random towns.

I have no idea. But I do think you to be correct on the profound ramifications.

Will we EVER know?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 11:52 am
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Subalpine Fir
 
Move this person straight up to detective.

Ultimately, MacLachlan's behavior on screen.  Utterly, undeniably different persons. 

Running Total:

Same: 0

Diff: 1

 

Hi Fir,

P.S. Thanks for the kind words.  😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 11:55 am
(@badalamenti-fan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Ric Bissell
Posted by: Subalpine Fir
 
Move this person straight up to detective.

Ultimately, MacLachlan's behavior on screen.  Utterly, undeniably different persons. 

Running Total:

Same: 0

Diff: 1

 

Hi Fir,

P.S. Thanks for the kind words.  😉

- /< /\ /> -

I took "the point" of Lynch's and Frost's gesture to be "both/and," not "either/or."  Hence, I abstain. : )

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:03 pm
(@marco_boselli_capellini)
Town Visitor

I also spent time thinking about this point...

My best guess about such personality changes is that characters behavior are mixed up in a "dreamy" way.

Let me link this post to better explain my own interpretation (detail in point 7):

http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/dscuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/laura-is-the-dreamer/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:05 pm
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Chris Gorgon

Clearly Richard is an identity within the Odessa universe and not just a cover name.  

But I think claiming Cooper is fully consumed by it is a tough row to hoe based on what we see.  He's confused by Diane/Linda's note, identifies as an FBI agent, remembers his mission, understands that Carrie = Laura, etc.  Compare this to Diane, who becomes lost in the Linda identity. 

Running Total:

Same: 1

Diff: 1

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the comments.  

But what if Richard is an FBI agent just waking up from a dream? In fact, maybe he's a member of his own Blue Rose task force.  =:-O

😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:09 pm
Deja Lee liked
(@nostar)
RR Diner Patron

Their personalities seem quite different, just like FBI badges, the RR's signage, attitudes about dead bodies in chairs etc. seem different in these two realities.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:22 pm
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Badalamenti Fan

   ... Poetically, I'm partial to the bleakest reading, whereby we discover that the entirety of the  "Dale Cooper vs. Mr. C" was nothing more than a "heroes vs. villains" psychodrama in/of/for "the Real Cooper," whose identity will forever be unknowable.  Maybe it's Dale, maybe it's Richard, maybe it was all a dream.

Running Total:

Same: 1

Diff: 2

Undec: 0

Hi Bad Fan (where you been? :-)),

Thanks, as usual, for the comments.  😉

I'm putting you in the "Same" category based on the excerpt from your post above.  (Notice, though, the newly added category of Undecided.  Again, based on the excerpt from your post above, if you want to be moved, let me know!   😉

Regarding your observations:  Do you think that only "multiplied characters" have  nuggets?  (Seeds, monads, - I'm going to call them nuggets, 'cause that's what they look like to me  - and if we ever get to Chantal we can talk about her McNugget soul. ;-))  I don't.  I think everyone in Twin Peaks-verse can be atomized to elemental metal - whether they be base - iron, tin - precious - gold, silver, or dangerous and violent  - lead and uranium.

And that they can be alchemically transmuted by the Magician - who longs to see.  😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:52 pm
(@bryant_arnett)
Town Visitor

I think Cooper woke up as Richard the same way he woke up as Dougie. Just a little more awake, but still trying to make his way in a world he doesn't fully grasp, trying to fulfill a mission he is not entirely sure about. All he knows is he must find Laura and get her home. Richard was probably living as an accountant or something in Odessa before Cooper replaced him. Richard was having an affair with someone named Linda, the same way Dougie was cheating on Janey-E.

Richard was manufactured, just like Dougie, probably by Judy/Diane, to keep Cooper from fully awakening into this new timeline created when he saved Laura's life.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:53 pm
(@b-randy)
Chief Moderator
Posted by: Ric Bissell
Posted by: Badalamenti Fan

   ... Poetically, I'm partial to the bleakest reading, whereby we discover that the entirety of the  "Dale Cooper vs. Mr. C" was nothing more than a "heroes vs. villains" psychodrama in/of/for "the Real Cooper," whose identity will forever be unknowable.  Maybe it's Dale, maybe it's Richard, maybe it was all a dream.

Running Total:

Same: 1

Diff: 2

Undec: 0

Hi Bad Fan (where you been? :-)),

Thanks, as usual, for the comments.  😉

I'm putting you in the "Same" category based on the excerpt from your post above.  (Notice, though, the newly added category of Undecided.  Again, based on the excerpt from your post above, if you want to be moved, let me know!   😉

Regarding your observations:  Do you think that only "multiplied characters" have  nuggets?  (Seeds, monads, - I'm going to call them nuggets, 'cause that's what they look like to me  - and if we ever get to Chantal we can talk about her McNugget soul. ;-))  I don't.  I think everyone in Twin Peaks-verse can be atomized to elemental metal - whether they be base - iron, tin - precious - gold, silver, or dangerous and violent  - lead and uranium.

And that they can be alchemically transmuted by the Magician - who longs to see.  😉

- /< /\ /> -

HEY!  My undecided vote doesn't count?

SMH, tough crowd.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 12:54 pm
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Brandy Fisher

I can't say that we all agree.  I'm not sure I agree.  But I also don't disagree.

If he was still Cooper, 

If he wasn't Cooper but actually Richard,

 

Same: 1

Diff: 2

Undec: 1

Hi Brandy,

No, I don't think we'll ever know.  We may not even ever come to a consensus.  Probably won't, come to think of it.  

But as both you and I agree, the answer to this particular question says quite a lot about what the saga of Twin Peaks was, and what it meant, and what it was meant to be.

😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 1:04 pm
(@mikeh72)
RR Diner Patron

Maybe not the most popular view, but I think Richard was real and psychologically damaged  and created Dale Cooper in his mind to be a hero of sorts.  Maybe to go try save as many women from domestic abuse which I think this season has ultimately been about.  And in Richard's mind, he is saving Laura Palmer as Dale Cooper.  Totally going with the psychological vs science fiction theory but that is what Lynch does to me.....

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/09/2017 1:06 pm
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