Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
And, looks like my not very well-considered and decidedly rambling post killed the topic. For now. My apologies, Shrrrrrrrk et al.
That said, I've opened a new topic in the 'off-topic" forum here. I've echoed, to the best of my ability, the thrust of how you framed the topic, Shrrrrk, but please let me know if you feel the new topic is too general in its approach to these issues.
Thanks, all.
Class! (assuming my teacher voice) I've read through what might have been a disastrous free-for-all and come out smiling. One more reason I avoid reddit.
Your thoughtful and civil discussion of complex and controversial themes makes me proud to be a member of this forum.
Thanks for having hearts of gold!
Yes, I had a much more corrosive interaction with this thread on Reddit. Even received caustic emails when users remembered my handle on more recent posts. Bizarre to me. My one-sided question here morphed into something truly thought-provoking and turned my question on its head (especially thanks to Badalamenti Fan). Immaturity level and white defensiveness on Reddit are abundant. Even had self-proclaimed Asian and Native users express anger with my post and use derogatory language. Ah, well.
We are pretty frickin awesome!
Well, yeah. Of course we are.
Aren't the woodsman "black"? 😉
^^This is purely for humorous purposes.
I grew up in a suburb of Montreal, Canada. There was no other ethnicity than white-caucasian. If I was to write a script talking about my childhood in the early 80's, I'm sorry but there wouldn't be any blacks or asians in it.
No need to apologize re: early 1980s Montreal demography-- I grew up in a similarly homogenous city in the Great Lakes region. But I think it bears mention that The Return is , in fact, set in the present, in an era where African-American vernacular culture (and, for that matter Hispanophone cultures or South Asian music/film, let alone K-Pop) has permeated all corners of North America by way of YouTube, Hollywood, and, of course, migration.
Your joke about The Woodsmen is actually of particular interest to me, because I've wondered if there might be something going on there that's rather too subtle to read conclusively, but cuts two ways across the trope of the U.S. "color line" in a way that summoned to mind Eric Lott's Love and Theft: Blackface Minstrelsy and The American Working Class .
I think, for instance, white racial anxiety is a pretty established frame among film scholars and U.S. cultural historians for understanding 1950s and 60s "monster" movies, anxieties that run much further back in literary history, famously, to include H.P. Lovecraft, an (unfortunately) outspoken eugenicist, IIRC .
So, perhaps it's not coincidental that the appearance of the Woodsmen in Part 8 all "corked up," as it were, is not so different from the depiction of African Americans (portrayed by white actors in similar makeup) in D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation ... Now wouldn't that be a fascinating turn for Lynch and Frost, a "zombie" trope so polysemous as to appear, equally plausibly IMO, to say something, simultaneously, about working-class white history (e.g., coalminers, railroad conductors, minstrelsy) and African-American history (e.g., racist depictions in film, from Birth of a Nation to smiling Pullman porters, railroad chain gangs, minstrelsy, even Abraham Lincoln himself, for that matter, etc.)
Now I realize this is the sort of post that will almost certainly attract ire. Just please take my free association with a generous grain of salt and let's chat. If I've taken unreasonable liberties, I'd be grateful for anybody willing to help me see where I've gone astray ...
PS: It occurs to me that this, obviously, belongs in the "Part 8" forum. But I'll plug for it staying here on account of the fact that seeing all 16 episodes thus far allows one to see the previous episodes in a different light ....
PPS: Maybe the real question, if there is, in fact, any credence to my reading of The Woodsmen in terms of the black/white "color line," is what this sort of reading might tell us about one Shrrrrk's original questions, re: representation in casting??? White actors portraying historical white anxieties about black people, in a series almost entirely absent black people? Whew... that's a mind bender...
Aren't the woodsman "black"? 😉
^^This is purely for humorous purposes.
I grew up in a suburb of Montreal, Canada. There was no other ethnicity than white-caucasian. If I was to write a script talking about my childhood in the early 80's, I'm sorry but there wouldn't be any blacks or asians in it.
No need to apologize re: early 1980s Montreal demography-- I grew up in a similarly homogenous city in the Great Lakes region. But I think it bears mention that The Return is , in fact, set in the present, in an era where African-American vernacular culture (and, for that matter Hispanophone cultures or South Asian music/film, let alone K-Pop) has permeated all corners of North America by way of YouTube, Hollywood, and, of course, migration.
Your joke about The Woodsmen is actually of particular interest to me, because I've wondered if there might be something going on there that's rather too subtle to read conclusively, but cuts two ways across the trope of the U.S. "color line" in a way that summoned to mind Eric Lott's Love and Theft: Blackface Minstrelsy and The American Working Class .
I think, for instance, white racial anxiety is a pretty established frame among film scholars and U.S. cultural historians for understanding 1950s and 60s "monster" movies, anxieties that run much further back in literary history, famously, to include H.P. Lovecraft, an (unfortunately) outspoken eugenicist, IIRC .
So, perhaps it's not coincidental that the appearance of the Woodsmen in Part 8 all "corked up," as it were, is not so different from the depiction of African Americans (portrayed by white actors in similar makeup) in D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation ... Now wouldn't that be a fascinating turn for Lynch and Frost, a "zombie" trope so polysemous as to appear, equally plausibly IMO, to say something, simultaneously, about working-class white history (e.g., coalminers, railroad conductors, minstrelsy) and African-American history (e.g., racist depictions in film, from Birth of a Nation to smiling Pullman porters, railroad chain gangs, minstrelsy, even Abraham Lincoln himself, for that matter, etc.)
Now I realize this is the sort of post that will almost certainly attract ire. Just please take my free association with a generous grain of salt and let's chat. If I've taken unreasonable liberties, I'd be grateful for anybody willing to help me see where I've gone astray ...
PS: It occurs to me that this, obviously, belongs in the "Part 8" forum. But I'll plug for it staying here on account of the fact that seeing all 16 episodes thus far allows one to see the previous episodes in a different light ....
PPS: Maybe the real question, if there is, in fact, any credence to my reading of The Woodsmen in terms of the black/white "color line," is what this sort of reading might tell us about one Shrrrrk's original questions, re: representation in casting??? White actors portraying historical white anxieties about black people, in a series almost entirely absent black people? Whew... that's a mind bender...
This is fantastic. You definitely opened up the possibility to some rich readings here. It makes me want to carefully read The Secret History because I feel like the keys are in there. And it will be interesting to see what ends up in The Final Dossier. And I would go back to Sarah Palmer for any in-depth discussion of "blackface" in conjunction with a focus on feminist interests in the series!
Lynch is racist and misogynistic, duh
Class! (assuming my teacher voice) I've read through what might have been a disastrous free-for-all and come out smiling. One more reason I avoid reddit.
Your thoughtful and civil discussion of complex and controversial themes makes me proud to be a member of this forum.
Thanks for having hearts of gold!
It's great when adults with different perspectives on issues actually behave like adults, debate and discuss complex issues without resorting to ad hominem attacks - that is how debate should be - both sides presenting their thoughts sans personal attacks
Yes, and I thank everyone here for being this way. It seems so hard nowadays to go online and not be attacked on a forum for just having your own opinion, which isn't even radical and certainly isn't hateful - it's just different from someone else's.
I love healthy debate with all sorts of people about their beliefs and thoughts on subjects but so many nowadays can't seem to hold a reasoned argument (and by argument I don't mean shouting at or insulting other people, which is all some can manage).
Totally refreshing thread.
Thank you all again. 🙂
Aren't the woodsman "black"? 😉
^^This is purely for humorous purposes.
I grew up in a suburb of Montreal, Canada. There was no other ethnicity than white-caucasian. If I was to write a script talking about my childhood in the early 80's, I'm sorry but there wouldn't be any blacks or asians in it.
No need to apologize re: early 1980s Montreal demography-- I grew up in a similarly homogenous city in the Great Lakes region. But I think it bears mention that The Return is , in fact, set in the present, in an era where African-American vernacular culture (and, for that matter Hispanophone cultures or South Asian music/film, let alone K-Pop) has permeated all corners of North America by way of YouTube, Hollywood, and, of course, migration.
Your joke about The Woodsmen is actually of particular interest to me, because I've wondered if there might be something going on there that's rather too subtle to read conclusively, but cuts two ways across the trope of the U.S. "color line" in a way that summoned to mind Eric Lott's Love and Theft: Blackface Minstrelsy and The American Working Class .
I think, for instance, white racial anxiety is a pretty established frame among film scholars and U.S. cultural historians for understanding 1950s and 60s "monster" movies, anxieties that run much further back in literary history, famously, to include H.P. Lovecraft, an (unfortunately) outspoken eugenicist, IIRC .
So, perhaps it's not coincidental that the appearance of the Woodsmen in Part 8 all "corked up," as it were, is not so different from the depiction of African Americans (portrayed by white actors in similar makeup) in D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation ... Now wouldn't that be a fascinating turn for Lynch and Frost, a "zombie" trope so polysemous as to appear, equally plausibly IMO, to say something, simultaneously, about working-class white history (e.g., coalminers, railroad conductors, minstrelsy) and African-American history (e.g., racist depictions in film, from Birth of a Nation to smiling Pullman porters, railroad chain gangs, minstrelsy, even Abraham Lincoln himself, for that matter, etc.)
Now I realize this is the sort of post that will almost certainly attract ire. Just please take my free association with a generous grain of salt and let's chat. If I've taken unreasonable liberties, I'd be grateful for anybody willing to help me see where I've gone astray ...
PS: It occurs to me that this, obviously, belongs in the "Part 8" forum. But I'll plug for it staying here on account of the fact that seeing all 16 episodes thus far allows one to see the previous episodes in a different light ....
PPS: Maybe the real question, if there is, in fact, any credence to my reading of The Woodsmen in terms of the black/white "color line," is what this sort of reading might tell us about one Shrrrrk's original questions, re: representation in casting??? White actors portraying historical white anxieties about black people, in a series almost entirely absent black people? Whew... that's a mind bender...
Lincoln's make a few appearances in the shape of coins, cars etc.
I have been rewatching the show (S3) since yesterday and made a mental note of looking out for the black people in it. Two in a bar, one on the boardroom, policeman in LV station, Red's 'guard', guy in RR diner when guy looking for Billy comes in. Of course we also have Jade, Colonal Davis and The MC in TP. There are many other ethnicities portrayed - the guy who tells Richard to put his cigarette out, the driver who ways the mother and boy over the road, woman at boardroom table, Bushnell's 'assistant', to name but a few, so although they aren't playing major main roles (and this may be due to demographic population), many are still included.
Perhaps TP, being behind the times still, has some gay characters that have yet to 'come out'.
Yes.
But only if they are gender fluid / transgender & completely denounce their penis.
Aren't the woodsman "black"? 😉
^^This is purely for humorous purposes.
I grew up in a suburb of Montreal, Canada. There was no other ethnicity than white-caucasian. If I was to write a script talking about my childhood in the early 80's, I'm sorry but there wouldn't be any blacks or asians in it.
No need to apologize re: early 1980s Montreal demography-- I grew up in a similarly homogenous city in the Great Lakes region. But I think it bears mention that The Return is , in fact, set in the present, in an era where African-American vernacular culture (and, for that matter Hispanophone cultures or South Asian music/film, let alone K-Pop) has permeated all corners of North America by way of YouTube, Hollywood, and, of course, migration.
Your joke about The Woodsmen is actually of particular interest to me, because I've wondered if there might be something going on there that's rather too subtle to read conclusively, but cuts two ways across the trope of the U.S. "color line" in a way that summoned to mind Eric Lott's Love and Theft: Blackface Minstrelsy and The American Working Class .
I think, for instance, white racial anxiety is a pretty established frame among film scholars and U.S. cultural historians for understanding 1950s and 60s "monster" movies, anxieties that run much further back in literary history, famously, to include H.P. Lovecraft, an (unfortunately) outspoken eugenicist, IIRC .
So, perhaps it's not coincidental that the appearance of the Woodsmen in Part 8 all "corked up," as it were, is not so different from the depiction of African Americans (portrayed by white actors in similar makeup) in D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation ... Now wouldn't that be a fascinating turn for Lynch and Frost, a "zombie" trope so polysemous as to appear, equally plausibly IMO, to say something, simultaneously, about working-class white history (e.g., coalminers, railroad conductors, minstrelsy) and African-American history (e.g., racist depictions in film, from Birth of a Nation to smiling Pullman porters, railroad chain gangs, minstrelsy, even Abraham Lincoln himself, for that matter, etc.)
Now I realize this is the sort of post that will almost certainly attract ire. Just please take my free association with a generous grain of salt and let's chat. If I've taken unreasonable liberties, I'd be grateful for anybody willing to help me see where I've gone astray ...
PS: It occurs to me that this, obviously, belongs in the "Part 8" forum. But I'll plug for it staying here on account of the fact that seeing all 16 episodes thus far allows one to see the previous episodes in a different light ....
PPS: Maybe the real question, if there is, in fact, any credence to my reading of The Woodsmen in terms of the black/white "color line," is what this sort of reading might tell us about one Shrrrrk's original questions, re: representation in casting??? White actors portraying historical white anxieties about black people, in a series almost entirely absent black people? Whew... that's a mind bender...
Lincoln's make a few appearances in the shape of coins, cars etc.
I have been rewatching the show (S3) since yesterday and made a mental note of looking out for the black people in it. Two in a bar, one on the boardroom, policeman in LV station, Red's 'guard', guy in RR diner when guy looking for Billy comes in. Of course we also have Jade, Colonal Davis and The MC in TP. There are many other ethnicities portrayed - the guy who tells Richard to put his cigarette out, the driver who ways the mother and boy over the road, woman at boardroom table, Bushnell's 'assistant', to name but a few, so although they aren't playing major main roles (and this may be due to demographic population), many are still included.
Perhaps TP, being behind the times still, has some gay characters that have yet to 'come out'.
All very true. But most of the characters are peripheral to the story and often in service positions to other characters.
Nevertheless, let it be known that I love the show, as is. Don't want to take it down or make the experience gloomy for anyone. <3 <3 <3
Thanks for putting it in an off-topic thread, Srrrrrk, I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity to talk about these topics.
A show conceived, written, nurtured by two white men. Serious lack of strong (or weak) Afro-American characters (there's the Roadhouse MC played by J.R. Starr...and the gent who welcomed us to the sycamore trees many moons ago). At least the original two seasons had some Asian characters (our currently billed sole Asian character is blind/nearly mute). Hawk is native, but solicited as the last of his kind. This would have been the season to change that, but it didn't happen, and the show hasn't received much vocal criticism regarding such (as far as I've read). Twin Peaks is a "white" show (and this is particularly glaring considering the current racial climate of our country).
As far as the white women are concerned, I am curious about them, as I used to dabble in post-modern (post-human?) literary theory/criticism. I'm curious what everyone thinks, through Part 16, about feminism in Twin Peaks as a whole? Women have been raped, slaughtered, treated like meat, but they also appear to be strong, resourceful, vengeful (when they aren't tulpas created by men - e.g. Diane, this episode). Shakespearean, much? The "experiment" was created by man. Sarah Palmer was drugged by a man, every few nights or so. Men run the Lodge, the sheriff station, the Roadhouse. Josie and Catherine were probably the strongest, most influential feminist characters, and this season is void of them. Thoughts?
Why weren't there more white people in the film Boyz in the Hood. Why aren't there more Inuit people in Lawrence of Arabia? Why aren't the plights of first peoples of the Amazon basin addressed?
see where I'm going here? Get over it.
lets not forget the most powerful beings representing good and evil in the whole cannon are female. Or how about the superhuman strength of Nadine? How about the strong and self made woman in Norma? Telling the business man who she is romantically involved with to take a hike. A woman (Lucy) takes out the season's main bad guy. Ray (a man) couldn't do that. Janey-E makes men look like blithering idiots. The impression we get is that is how she has always treated Dougie. The female coroner is the only character in the whole show who is intelligent enough for Albert to have dinner with. Oh yea, and DL addressed trans gender issues like 25 years ago so...
... please don't bring current climate socio-political issues into a story that is about so much more than that.
I'm simply interested to see where, in the future, Frost/Lynch will take their vision and if it will include more direct involvement with actors of color in lead or pivotal roles.
I think they are both brilliant artists, and they follow their hearts. That's a personal opinion and it can be spit upon of course. But that's what I've gathered from what I've read and seen.
Mark Frost tweeted last week about racism being evil and I retweeted his tweet and he LIKED IT. Mark Frost liked my tweet, I was very excited. In TSHOTP, Hawk is a storyteller in his chapter and there's awareness of his representation as a Native American that is quite well-articulated. So I'm convinced that he's aware of racism and thinks it's a problem in America. Lynch talks about his mother in THE ART LIFE and the very first thing he says, a compliment about her good mothering, is that she was never racist. He talks at length also about going to Philadelphia as a young man and noticing how racism created an atmosphere of fear that influenced his art.
They have never delved into anything like that with African-Americans, who simply haven't been a large part of the TP cosmos, and part of that is geography and social breakdown. There aren't many African-Americans in TP, just like there aren't a whole lot in my suburb where I live now. But no doubt there are some who are breathing, living, thinking characters in a town like Twin Peaks in 2017.
This isn't a war or a call to arms. It's just an observation. I would not be surprised if this is an area they will eventually be thinking on more in future work.
I'm simply interested to see where, in the future, Frost/Lynch will take their vision and if it will include more direct involvement with actors of color in lead or pivotal roles.
I think they are both brilliant artists, and they follow their hearts. That's a personal opinion and it can be spit upon of course. But that's what I've gathered from what I've read and seen.
Mark Frost tweeted last week about racism being evil and I retweeted his tweet and he LIKED IT. Mark Frost liked my tweet, I was very excited. In TSHOTP, Hawk is a storyteller in his chapter and there's awareness of his representation as a Native American that is quite well-articulated. So I'm convinced that he's aware of racism and thinks it's a problem in America. Lynch talks about his mother in THE ART LIFE and the very first thing he says, a compliment about her good mothering, is that she was never racist. He talks at length also about going to Philadelphia as a young man and noticing how racism created an atmosphere of fear that influenced his art.
They have never delved into anything like that with African-Americans, who simply haven't been a large part of the TP cosmos, and part of that is geography and social breakdown. There aren't many African-Americans in TP, just like there aren't a whole lot in my suburb where I live now. But no doubt there are some who are breathing, living, thinking characters in a town like Twin Peaks in 2017.
This isn't a war or a call to arms. It's just an observation. I would not be surprised if this is an area they will eventually be thinking on more in future work.
They are dealing with evil in its most pure and distilled form. Racism, as well as the horrors that are already included (imo more than enough) are just human manifestations of that evil.
The constant presence of jazz is like having Afro American culture setting the entire tone and atmosphere of the story.
Fire walk with 
