Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
As for leaving Las Vegas, I agree w others above. He wanted to get to TP ASAP, and he knows what to do there and how dire it is better than anyone. He left the note for Cole. If Coop did leave the Owl ring, I'm guessing he figured it would be in safer hands with Cole, cuz Mr. C might demand it from Coop. (And I still don't even know what the damn ring does.)
Maybe this is a nod to the fact that the Mitchum brothers are also Tulpas? Their hearts of gold are "the seeds" that we see with the end of Dougie and Diane. The Mitchum's lives played perfectly into the lodges plans and success, who is to say they were not also manufactured for purposes seen? And that is why Candie laughed so much, because she is the realization of "oh, hahaha yeah they do 'hearts' of gold".
That's what I thought, too! A subtle play on words by Cooper that says more about the Mitchums than they realize. Although, it would start to get a bit trite if more types of manufactured beings started showing up in the end. Perhaps he also meant that they were sent by the Fireman, similar to Laura, but that's a stretch.
For now, I like the idea that Mr. C was so hell-bent on staying in our world that he devised all manner of traps and safeguards, like the box in NY, manufactured beings, tried to stay away from A/C voltage while driving in the desert, etc.). That gives him the incentive to create these tulpas where Mike is a bit more hand on. If Mike did manufacture the Mitchums, he could've made them more compliant and suggestible, though so they would help Dougie (as that would have been their purpose).
Maybe this is a nod to the fact that the Mitchum brothers are also Tulpas? Their hearts of gold are "the seeds" that we see with the end of Dougie and Diane. The Mitchum's lives played perfectly into the lodges plans and success, who is to say they were not also manufactured for purposes seen? And that is why Candie laughed so much, because she is the realization of "oh, hahaha yeah they do 'hearts' of gold".
That's what I thought, too! A subtle play on words by Cooper that says more about the Mitchums than they realize. Although, it would start to get a bit trite if more types of manufactured beings started showing up in the end. Perhaps he also meant that they were sent by the Fireman, similar to Laura, but that's a stretch.
For now, I like the idea that Mr. C was so hell-bent on staying in our world that he devised all manner of traps and safeguards, like the box in NY, manufactured beings, tried to stay away from A/C voltage while driving in the desert, etc.). That gives him the incentive to create these tulpas where Mike is a bit more hand on. If Mike did manufacture the Mitchums, he could've made them more compliant and suggestible, though so they would help Dougie (as that would have been their purpose).
Yes, it would get a bit trite.... until we learn that EVERY character is manufactured and that David Lynch is "The Experiment" spitting them out!
I am still in the camp (maybe that camp is just me) that thinks the Mitchum brothers are just good guys who grew up in a mafia culture where if someone scams you out of thousands of dollars you "send a message" and if someone scams you out of millions of dollars they "sleep with the fishes." I'm not saying it's okay, I'm just saying that's probably business as usual. Also they had to be believably dangerous at first or you wouldn't be worried when Dougie met them in the desert.
But we all already commented on how unexpectedly kind Rodney was after Candie hit him with the remote, and then you find out they put a hit on a pretty awful hitman, and then after the "injustice" with the 30 mil is rectified you get the full range of their generosity, and the icing of course is them coming to see Dougie and make sure his family is taken care of while he's in the hospital.
I guess you don't have to forgive their mafia style scenes or suspect them of being tulpas, but I think that's a shame because you're missing out on one of the greatest unexpected character turnarounds on the show.
Plus just look at Candie's face light up when she knows Cooper feels the same way about them that she does. She wants everyone to love the Mitchum Brothers the way she does.
I am still in the camp (maybe that camp is just me) that thinks the Mitchum brothers are just good guys who grew up in a mafia culture where if someone scams you out of thousands of dollars you "send a message" and if someone scams you out of millions of dollars they "sleep with the fishes." I'm not saying it's okay, I'm just saying that's probably business as usual. Also they had to be believably dangerous at first or you wouldn't be worried when Dougie met them in the desert.
But we all already commented on how unexpectedly kind Rodney was after Candie hit him with the remote, and then you find out they put a hit on a pretty awful hitman, and then after the "injustice" with the 30 mil is rectified you get the full range of their generosity, and the icing of course is them coming to see Dougie and make sure his family is taken care of while he's in the hospital.
I guess you don't have to forgive their mafia style scenes or suspect them of being tulpas, but I think that's a shame because you're missing out on one of the greatest unexpected character turnarounds on the show.
Plus just look at Candie's face light up when she knows Cooper feels the same way about them that she does. She wants everyone to love the Mitchum Brothers the way she does.
Yeah. I'm in your camp. They were orphans, and that's just how they grew up--kinda somewhat like Vito Corleone.
I am still in the camp (maybe that camp is just me) that thinks the Mitchum brothers are just good guys who grew up in a mafia culture where if someone scams you out of thousands of dollars you "send a message" and if someone scams you out of millions of dollars they "sleep with the fishes." I'm not saying it's okay, I'm just saying that's probably business as usual. Also they had to be believably dangerous at first or you wouldn't be worried when Dougie met them in the desert.
But we all already commented on how unexpectedly kind Rodney was after Candie hit him with the remote, and then you find out they put a hit on a pretty awful hitman, and then after the "injustice" with the 30 mil is rectified you get the full range of their generosity, and the icing of course is them coming to see Dougie and make sure his family is taken care of while he's in the hospital.
I guess you don't have to forgive their mafia style scenes or suspect them of being tulpas, but I think that's a shame because you're missing out on one of the greatest unexpected character turnarounds on the show.
Plus just look at Candie's face light up when she knows Cooper feels the same way about them that she does. She wants everyone to love the Mitchum Brothers the way she does.
Candie was betraying the Mitchums, because they ignored her and her search for love(hitting with the remote, then crying), until Dougie showed up in that melancholia/restaurant scene as another 'robot' like buddy of the Mitchums here, and then she was switched from sad to happy just like Dougie was doing in that scene. Also we see the same switch in the limo during that whole bloody Mary scene, she looks upset then smiles when Dougie starts talking, culminating in her feeling great, followed the Mitchums when Dougie says the Mitchums have a heart of gold. First Dougie says they are great, Candie like Dougie so she says Mitchums are great, then Mitchums are happy. Candie was also looking very sad while viewing Dougie in the coma. So like that 'Seven' scene with that box in the desert, Dougie is cleaning up the Mitchums problems here, changing Candie's head(what would have happened if she continued angering them, or left for the street) into cherry pie, enjoying the cherry pie, like a golden shovel out of the mud, etc., not sure how this would have resolved Candie's tragic loss of her search for true love, but it would smooth things over....into to some kind of 'balance' with anger and indignity right under the surface. That cherry pie is not going to taste so great 20 times around.....and the problems still there untouched. Maybe they will use the temporary 'peace' to get back into genuine love, community, etc., who knows....
Also, about Mitchums and Bushnell, even if inside their 'hearts' they are bigger saints then Mother Teresa, their social role and jobs will force them into criminal behavior, making sure that no matter what 'hearts' they have, they will be committing widespread injustice and enforcing it in their parts of Vegas. This charity etc. just gives them a way to forgive themselves out of responsibility for their social role in running a criminal enterprise, taking money from people excessively(Bushnell against Anthony, etc. here), participating in insurance fraud, killings, racketeering, etc., and this forgiving themselves allows them to maintain their brutal social role without feeling the guilt of it. If they grew up in a mafia culture, then joined mafia, but still wanted to have good hearts,what do the hearts matter? Its disgusting, they get to kill, crime, ruin people, send them to rancho rosa, etc., then on top of that get to feel good about themselves because they bought a kid a gym set? All blessed by Agent Cooper? I dont know, I hope this is going to be resolved though.....
I doubt it, Murat.
Now they are off to Twin Peaks. The Mitchum brothers in Twin Peaks! The mind boggles...
I doubt it, Murat.
Now they are off to Twin Peaks. The Mitchum brothers in Twin Peaks! The mind boggles...
Yeah, seems you are right, but this one is really bugging me though.....really I have no hope in this if its a straight up happy ending here....unless something I havent thought of comes up to somehow change everything I have said...
Since when is running a casino a criminal enterprise?
I think this is an excellent example of how stereotypes work. If we stick to the facts we certainly know then they have commited one crime, beating up an employee who didn't do his job right. Everything else that has been brought up, from insurance fraud to murder is what you imagine they might have done. Didn't Bushnell say their insurance claim was justified? So in that instance it was them who were betrayed originally and they felt bad about it.
Their moral code seems to be very biblical (as is portrayed so often with "the mob"), an eye for an eye kinda thing, but they don't appear to be immoral per se.
While I'm not naive enough to expect a "happy" ending (hello, TP fans -- remember how the original series ended???), your views paint a pretty drab picture. That's not to say you are not correct -- you very well could be. However, I tend to see things a bit rosier.
Like some have said, I think the theme of duality in TP supersedes pretty much all else: the Mitchums could be "good" people who have, like so many other characters in this series, failed to fend off "evil." Heck, even Laura -- who was the only character BOB couldn't fully inhabit -- did a bunch of horrible things for whatever reason. It's entirely believable that being in the essence of pure good (Dougie/Coop) has lit the candle of goodness in the Mitchums. Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.
As for Coop "swooping in" to "save the day": I could totally see him dying at the end of this. In the words of the Log Lady, "Death is just a change." And if Coop has truly been resurrected "100%," as he states, then I could see him serving as a sort of sacrificial entity that gives himself up for the benefit of the greater good. I could see Laura, real Diane (who I believe is still somewhere, based on all the fishy time-0f-day mixups with her texts), and even Bobby doing the same.
Ultimately, I don't think the ending will be traditionally happy. I also don't think he'll limit it to sad or evil. I think we'll lose some character(s) we love, whether to death, to the lodges, or to something else altogether remains to be seen. But I don't doubt that characters such as Laura, Coop, and a few others are the embodiment of good in this battle versus evil. If TP has taught us anything, that does NOT mean they'll win...
Since when is running a casino a criminal enterprise?
I think this is an excellent example of how stereotypes work. If we stick to the facts we certainly know then they have commited one crime, beating up an employee who didn't do his job right. Everything else that has been brought up, from insurance fraud to murder is what you imagine they might have done. Didn't Bushnell say their insurance claim was justified? So in that instance it was them who were betrayed originally and they felt bad about it.
Their moral code seems to be very biblical (as is portrayed so often with "the mob"), an eye for an eye kinda thing, but they don't appear to be immoral per se.
We know for certain they are running a criminal enterprise. First that beating of the casino manager exposed that they were not only just beating him, but running something like a protection racket in Las Vegas, since they ordered him to leave town, with the implicit threat that there would be consequences if he did not leave their territory. They are controlling who works in the town, and giving orders to such effect, making sure only their allies work in areas they control. Furthermore, were heard them conspiring to murder Dougie for winning on slot machines and denying them an insurance claim, just because someone told them Dougie had a vendetta on them....then said, 'screw us once shame on us, screw us twice, shame on you, your dead', which is a nice quote, but shows their familiar engagement with killing, and also here they consider someone winning at their casino 'screwing them'. Also, we heard them say they were putting out a hit on 'Ike', paying someone to kill a rival; now, well Ike is a bad guy, this shows that they are involved in gangland 'tit for tat' hits with rivals. To confirm this, we have Duncan, an employer of Ike who also ran a criminal enterprise in cooperation with Mr. C(ordering hits, etc.), who described the Mitchums as their 'rivals'. Funny thing is that after all this people assume that they are some force for good, even against the facts and what the Mitchums themselves clearly reveal about themselves; and this assumption is only because they are quirky, make people feel good, and give out presents to people who made them money and work in a business useful to them in the future.
Finally about the insurance fraud: Dougie was implicated in the fraud he uncovered, just like Anthony, but Bushnell Mullins was ready to conveniently ignore this because Dougie was making him a lot of money and getting him connected with the Mitchums. So this is not an assumption here, but was fully revealed that Mullins is corrupted as well, and the way he treated Anthony, who was the only one trying to fully get the insurance company out of fraud and 'make things right' was treated as the son of satan and the source of all evil so Mullins could conveniently go on collaborating with the Mitchums. The idea that the fire that Mullins paid out the 30 million to the Mitchums for was a real fire was an assumption Mullins made himself because he liked the Mitchums and was angry at Anthony. Mullins was doing pushups after he had just gotten a big pay out thanks to 'doubling down' on the Mitchums claim, was so happy he was ready to overlook anything that would get in the way of his money makers Dougie and Mitchums. Mullins reveals that the Mitchums are widely considered to be gangsters, he calls them 'alleged gangsters', but then convenient scoffs at this like he know it is not true because of the money he stands to make by dealing with them. We know that Dougie uncovered fraud where Anthony, who was working for Mitchums' rival Duncan, had falsified the claim to make it look like arson so that the Mitchums would not get the payout. But we never know for sure that there was a legitimate claim in the first place, this was just assumed by Mullins in his outburst of 'jackpot joy'. The Mitchums run a criminal organization, and in these types of groups it is common practice to start business for a short time, then light them on fire to collect the insurance money. Here the Mitchums actually could have committed arson made to look like a legitimate fire, but this Mitchums arson was never discovered because it was covered up by the revelation that Dunacns group intentionally made it look like arson, so the real investigation was never carried out into the real cause of the fire, which could have still been an arson made to look like a legitimate fire. Finally, the Mitchums began the social exchange with Mullins and Dougie, giving them all kinds of present, creating a social link which would have to be reciprocated in the future. In other words, Dougie and Mullins would owe them 'favorable treatment' in the future, which they could use for future insurance claims, they definitely had a prospective interest in making friends with Mullins and Dougie.......
Well, Dougie didn't win a jackpot, he cleared them out in a couple of minutes.
You wouldn't be suspicious if sb came to your casino and won 20+ jackpots in half an hour?
Yes, they display the typical mobster attitude (an eye for an eye, screw you if you screw me, vigilantism). But again, most of your points are assumptions and conclusions you chose to draw and not proven facts.
So simply denying the possibility that, albeit their roughneck habitus, they might truely be gold-hearted is a bit simplistic from my pov. Yes, TP is about dualities, but for me it's also about the schizophrenic nature of every (human) being.
Well, Dougie didn't win a jackpot, he cleared them out in a couple of minutes.
You wouldn't be suspicious if sb came to your casino and won 20+ jackpots in half an hour?Yes, they display the typical mobster attitude (an eye for an eye, screw you if you screw me, vigilantism). But again, most of your points are assumptions and conclusions you chose to draw and not proven facts.
So simply denying the possibility that, albeit their roughneck habitus, they might truely be gold-hearted is a bit simplistic from my pov. Yes, TP is about dualities, but for me it's also about the schizophrenic nature of every (human) being.
It is suspicious that someone won so many jackpots, but what they did in response to this exposes their criminality and what their ordinary life is like as criminal gang, when they declared their protection racket and beat up the manager, then plotted to kill Dougie, who they thought was from a rival criminal gang....If they were not criminals, would they have done all of this? What this stuff is not real: getting people killed, setting up rackets, but somehow not a criminal gang?
I am not denying that they are 'gold hearted', they certainly are when they are getting 30 million dollar checks, allowing then to put down their gun.....But in regards to their social role as gangsters, their 'hearts of gold' mean nothing but soothing their guilt so they can comfortably make the transition from draining the town, then back to comfort and the 'heart of gold' lie so they can be drinking obscene bloody marys in a stretch limo
And what I have said are not baseless assumptions, and the only thing not 'factually proven' was that they actually set the fire themselves to commit insurance fraud, but this would follow their MO and is definitely not an issue settled by Mullins delirious and wrong assessment of the Mitchums in the wake of his huge payout from the Mitchums claim, the baseless assumption of Mullins which is certainly not 'fact'. Everything here is coming from the 'facts' of what the Mitchums themselves have displayed, said, and acted....Ive made nothing up here...just followed the modus operandi that they themselves have shown.....
obscene bloody marys
Lol, your moral compass has a pretty narrow bandwidth, eh?
Cheers mate, off to have an obscene drink. Hopefully it'll sooth my guilt.
obscene bloody marys
Lol, your moral compass has a pretty narrow bandwidth, eh?
Cheers mate, off to have an obscene drink. Hopefully it'll sooth my guilt.
Yes, look at that bloody mary.......not exactly your basic drink, but quite stacked up with stuff, made to be obscene, extra, excessive, beyond bounds, etc....and this luxury demanded as normal, Bradley would not even allow the conversation, social interaction to begin before he had that drink, nothing cannot start until they have that excessive luxury and comfort. This obscene drink says something about the 'moral compass' here, if you want to call it like that, as well as their social role and expectations, what kind of people these are, what they will demand....etc...its a clue in a mystery show, cheers is right here, mate.....
Fire walk with 
