We know that someone talked with Mr. C back in that hotel room where he killed Darya 5 days ago and this person threatened him with his forced return to the black lodge. Mr. C at first thought it was Phillip Jeffries, but then was not sure. Later we heard that someone calling themselves Phillip Jeffries called Albert previously and got him to reveal classified information about agents working in Columbia, leading to the death of those agents. Finally we thought that Ray was working with Phillip Jeffries who wanted something Mr. C has(Bob). Ray thought he was dealing with Jeffries , since the man calling him claimed to be Phillip Jeffries, but this easily could be a trick to hide the real identity and pin the 'hit' on Jeffries. Also, Ray never met with the man calling him and never confirmed if it was Jeffries or not calling him. Now that Mr. C has met with Jeffries, Jeffries himself sounded as if he was ignorant about the entire situation, as if he had no idea what Mr. C was talking about or if he was even really Cooper, and generally did not seem bothered at all by Mr. C's presence and began revealing everything he knew about Judy; and this is not behavior you would expect from Jeffries if he was against Mr. C and plotting for his death.
If Jeffries is telling the truth and had nothing to do with those phone calls, then who is looking to take Bob out of Mr. C to use for himself? Once Agent Cooper proper returns, which character will take over Bob, who will Bob inhabit?
Hi Murat,
Windom Earle - who else? 😉
- /< /\ /> -
Hi Murat,
Windom Earle - who else? 😉
- /< /\ /> -
It was someone with the ability to be like a 'Windom Earle' to Mr. C, some kind of rival who knows his weakness, someone who was able to get under his skin and give him genuine concern and hesitate during that phone call in 'Darya's motel room', much like Windom Earl or Bob/Leland did to the original Agent Cooper('remember what happened in Pittsburgh Agent Cooper?'). Whoever it is, they must know something about his 'pain'/black fire that caused him to 'split' into Mr. C(Twin Peaks as corrupted, Laura as corrupted, etc.);
but now it seems Laura with 'angel dreams' has returned via Naido, and I think, as Andy knew, that Naido's survival and impact will be be closely related to the death of Mr. C via the return of justice/dreams for Laura and Twin Peaks(already had some since Naido's return via Norma/Big Ed), thats one reason why Naido is so important. Also Dougie/Cooper now just shocked himself like Naido did on top of the 'mother's purple house'......
I have a question.
As mentioned before in this forum, my knowledge of all-things Twin Peaks is a little shaky, so this question is about The Arm.
I get the impression, from FWWM and some scenes in the original run, that he/it is not really on the side of good. And yet.... in the beginning of The Return, he and Mike seem to be getting along pretty well. In fact, when they begin to sense something is wrong, the Arm says, somewhat sadly it seems, that it's his doppelganger (come to cause trouble, which he/it does).
So... is the Arm good now? Is Mike? Is the term "good" to broad?
Help a brother out here.
I'm in board with most of this, Murat. Who do you think is after Bob?
I am not sure, but we know that Agent Cooper proper will be coming back, which means Bob will have to leave from Mr. C....where will Bob go, since I think that Twin Peaks is meant to continue even if not shown on television, as it did for 25 years in between? Right now I am suspecting that where Bob goes is a possible twist/cliffhanger on the ending of the show.....could be lots of possible suspects for agent cooper to pursue once he completes 'the return'....
My (somewhat) wild guess right now would be James, maybe Bobby, both are headed for possible trouble with 'blue rose import'....could be Richard even....
I think BOB left Mr. C in part 8. I am not sure he has realuzed it yet...
What is good and bad? These are human terms, these entities are not human and seem to rely on human instinct and emotion to feed. Are we animals upon which they feed and draw power, from our emotional investment in concepts of good and bad, but to them they are but emotions each with a different taste. Are their plans beyond our concepts of good and bad.
What is good and bad? These are human terms, these entities are not human and seem to rely on human instinct and emotion to feed. Are we animals upon which they feed and draw power, from our emotional investment in concepts of good and bad, but to them they are but emotions each with a different taste. Are their plans beyond our concepts of good and bad.
Eh, this is a show made by humans, who operate in a world where the terms good and bad exist.
And, I am a human, and they are terms I understand. If "good" or "bad" do not fit with what certain entities are in Twin Peaks, then ok. Can someone please just answer my question as best they can, without getting philosophical?
We know that someone talked with Mr. C back in that hotel room where he killed Darya 5 days ago and this person threatened him with his forced return to the black lodge. Mr. C at first thought it was Phillip Jeffries, but then was not sure. Later we heard that someone calling themselves Phillip Jeffries called Albert previously and got him to reveal classified information about agents working in Columbia, leading to the death of those agents. Finally we thought that Ray was working with Phillip Jeffries who wanted something Mr. C has(Bob). Ray thought he was dealing with Jeffries , since the man calling him claimed to be Phillip Jeffries, but this easily could be a trick to hide the real identity and pin the 'hit' on Jeffries. Also, Ray never met with the man calling him and never confirmed if it was Jeffries or not calling him. Now that Mr. C has met with Jeffries, Jeffries himself sounded as if he was ignorant about the entire situation, as if he had no idea what Mr. C was talking about or if he was even really Cooper, and generally did not seem bothered at all by Mr. C's presence and began revealing everything he knew about Judy; and this is not behavior you would expect from Jeffries if he was against Mr. C and plotting for his death.
If Jeffries is telling the truth and had nothing to do with those phone calls, then who is looking to take Bob out of Mr. C to use for himself? Once Agent Cooper proper returns, which character will take over Bob, who will Bob inhabit?
Is Bob even with Mr. C anymore? I thought he left him when he almost died in episode 8.
What is good and bad? These are human terms, these entities are not human and seem to rely on human instinct and emotion to feed. Are we animals upon which they feed and draw power, from our emotional investment in concepts of good and bad, but to them they are but emotions each with a different taste. Are their plans beyond our concepts of good and bad.
Eh, this is a show made by humans, who operate in a world where the terms good and bad exist.
And, I am a human, and they are terms I understand. If "good" or "bad" do not fit with what certain entities are in Twin Peaks, then ok. Can someone please just answer my question as best they can, without getting philosophical?
In Twin Peaks we have somethings that maybe could be called both 'beneath good and evil' and 'beyond good and evil':
Problem with Mike, and why he turns evil, is that his good is merely 'not-evil'(rather than not 'not-evil'): he basically accepts the world as it is, like a fully existing entity, so that all of the 'evil' and bad things are something like a natural law set for all eternity, so that for him being 'good' is just trying to avoid that desperately running around in his camper, living in the shadows as a shoe-salesman, cutting off his arm, just trying to avoid the omnipresent 'natural evil', which he cannot negate or oppose with his dreams, he cannot get 'beyond' it, dream of something better and fight for it, since he cut off his arm and then in the end becomes reliant on that 'natural evil' to provide for him and his dreams, since Bob/Mr. C now ruling the world by force. He still shares the same mindset with Bob/Mr. C/billionaires, who 'wants' the 'mother'/experiment as if it is a natural existing thing he could possess, as if he could make the government and the world his property by getting rid of the law in order to impose a reign of tyranny that operates on the principle of natural terror, 'force'(nature's blind killing and catastrophe) rules, then offering protection if people take the ring, sort of like a mafia group or business cartel that demands people's allegiance, without law or rights which can be suspended at any time, by holding the threat and fear of terrorism over them. The approach here is not 'beyond good and evil', but beneath it, not even being able to raise yourself out of the primordial animal slop in order to deal with 'good and evil', and both Mike and Bob follow this, although Mike was trying to get out but fails. Mike tries to be 'good', but fails because he dealt with 'mother nature' by cutting off the arm that has the 'MOM' tattoo on it, and he is deeply ashamed because has not been able to raise himself against it successfully. Both Mike and Bob are 'good' in the sense that they both uphold the same authority that rules the world via Mr. C/Billionaires surveillance and terror mafia; and they try to impose this 'beneath good an evil' animal ethics on all people, which is why that woodsmen shocks the jumping man which turns into a monkey, and this is what they tried to do to Sarah Palmer by destroying her family and the truck driver, but she is now against the natural order since that 'truck you' scene, doing something which is not 'not-evil', that might be considered bad, but Mike would never do it, since he tattooed MOM(it all depends here how this power of Sarah is used and on whom, not if it used at all). Bob/Mr. C and Mike both agree that the 'mother-nature' entity, sick from the sick dreams signified by the nuclear bomb and the woodsmen, fully exist, and they accept its reign, they are beneath good and evil, dreams, etc.
Beyond good and evil would be something that is closer to being not 'not-evil': it does not accept the reign of the 'evil-good' nature of the 'mother-woodsmen' dynamic, since this working back and forth of good and evil is 'good' together in the sense that both sides of it uphold a positive natural order. The vortex tears nature apart, and can give access to the genuine dreams that change the nature of reality itself, the way Mr. C/Billionaires/Woodsmen's dreams are ruling reality right now. Beyond would be looking to the dreams that are not there, not a positively existing thing to appropriate, but something like a process of justice, love, etc. that is 'evil' in the sense that it tears apart nature and things considered 'good' by the ruling order(for example, how Norma's act of going with her Twin Peaks 'family' and dumping Walter violently disregards all those 'happy customers' eating the 'lesser' pies that Walter the 'well dressed man' is organizing, for her true love and community). Dreams and nature are disconnected, thus shown as the violent vortex that causes pain and woodsmen hang around, but also Andy, Freddy, et al go up there, the Major is up there; this disconnect also gives the freedom also give the freedom to follow dreams and not be bound to a 'naturally existing' and 'merely factual' good-evil complex that could be described or defined by how things positively exist, ideas change the world, etc., thinking (dis)connects with being, 'I think therefore I am', etc......
Is Bob even with Mr. C anymore? I thought he left him when he almost died in episode 8.
The way I have it right now is that Bob is still with Mr. C: it never showed Bob leave Mr. C's body completely, but just poke out on the surface; Ray said that there was something 'in' Mr. C on his phone call following the shooting, and the guy(whoever it is, if its not Jeffries) who has been tracking Mr. C all this time wanted 'something' from Mr. C, wanted Bob from Mr. C and is still actively seeking it, thus trying to get Mr. C back in the black lodge so he can take Bob.
I am now thinking that Bob appeared in Mr. C's stomach to plug up the fatal shot that Ray hit Mr. C with. Ray hit Mr. C with two shots, one that passed through only flesh-muscle, no organ or bone, and another that hit him straight in the center where a lot of organs are located(and this shot is the one that was not present when Chantal was 'patching him up'). I now think that Bob appeared there to plug up the fatal gunshot so he could continue living on in Mr. C, since he probably likes Agent Cooper's exceptional abilities.
I have a question.
As mentioned before in this forum, my knowledge of all-things Twin Peaks is a little shaky, so this question is about The Arm.
I get the impression, from FWWM and some scenes in the original run, that he/it is not really on the side of good. And yet.... in the beginning of The Return, he and Mike seem to be getting along pretty well. In fact, when they begin to sense something is wrong, the Arm says, somewhat sadly it seems, that it's his doppelganger (come to cause trouble, which he/it does).
So... is the Arm good now? Is Mike? Is the term "good" to broad?
Help a brother out here.
I know you've asked for a straight "good v bad" answer, but it seems to me that within the lodge entities the battle isn't seen in that way but rather order/balance/peace versus disorder/chaos/mayhem. In the best of situations, there is balance between the lodges. With Bob and Mr. C running amok, order is threatened. The Mike and arm/tree we see in The Return seem to be working toward restoring order, primarily by restoring Dale Cooper. To us, that's good. DoppelTree/Arm attempts to screw that up, which to us is bad.
I suspect that Mike's arm/tree as a long-time lodge entity can see the danger Bob and Mr. C running amok can pose, and that although formerly relishing the pain and sorrow inflicted to obtain garmanbozia, realizes that there are more important things than that. I view it as a maturing more than "turning good." They are who they are but Mr.C and Bob could change everything for BOTH lodges, and they don't want that.
Is it possible the call to Mr C came from Garland Briggs?
The timeline of events is hazy. It is not outside the realms of possibility that he placed the call a) before he died or b) from the other side.
Is it possible the call to Mr C came from Garland Briggs?
The timeline of events is hazy. It is not outside the realms of possibility that he placed the call a) before he died or b) from the other side.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking about: those 'phone calls' that Mr. C received are not exactly normal, he had to use all of those high tech machines just to get one phone call from that sinister sounding person who we thought was Jeffries all along. There were lots of machines in Major's observatory deep in the forest, in blue rose task force operations, and billionaire/Mr. C's glass box, since all of these groups are seeking to monitor and/or control the lodges/red room and their manifestations; and I think this call to Mr. C, if it could access this machine of his, or if Mr. C needed that high tech machine to make the call, must have come from lodges/red room, and if can access those machines then whoever made the call could also have called a normal cell phone to direct Ray around with promises of money.
But what is interesting for me here, is that even Andy(who took 'only cheese sandwich') can go up to the lodges, so I dont think its about 'lodge entities' vs. normal people, but that everyone has that 'infinite' part of them, that 'disconnect'/dream they have to deal with somehow that is traumatic like a blue rose(remember that Andy and Lucy 'stopped time' and were not fooled by Chad's cynical 'beautiful day', only cheese here). So really it could have been anyone making that call from the lodges/red room, something like a hidden evil inside of someone that is cultivating itself now in the dark and making those calls, but has not yet seen the light of day....could be anyone really......
What is good and bad? These are human terms, these entities are not human and seem to rely on human instinct and emotion to feed. Are we animals upon which they feed and draw power, from our emotional investment in concepts of good and bad, but to them they are but emotions each with a different taste. Are their plans beyond our concepts of good and bad.
Eh, this is a show made by humans, who operate in a world where the terms good and bad exist.
And, I am a human, and they are terms I understand. If "good" or "bad" do not fit with what certain entities are in Twin Peaks, then ok. Can someone please just answer my question as best they can, without getting philosophical?
I think it's about balance. Bad Cooper being in the world with Bob is causing an imbalance and though they are "bad" the balance is what's important
I'd say that we saw the 'real' Philip Jeffries (although 'real' is a strange word for someone that has transformed to a coffee pot).
Ray mentioned the Dutchman, without knowing where or what that was, so Coop went there.
I have a question.
As mentioned before in this forum, my knowledge of all-things Twin Peaks is a little shaky, so this question is about The Arm.
I get the impression, from FWWM and some scenes in the original run, that he/it is not really on the side of good. And yet.... in the beginning of The Return, he and Mike seem to be getting along pretty well. In fact, when they begin to sense something is wrong, the Arm says, somewhat sadly it seems, that it's his doppelganger (come to cause trouble, which he/it does).
So... is the Arm good now? Is Mike? Is the term "good" to broad?
Help a brother out here.
I know you've asked for a straight "good v bad" answer, but it seems to me that within the lodge entities the battle isn't seen in that way but rather order/balance/peace versus disorder/chaos/mayhem. In the best of situations, there is balance between the lodges. With Bob and Mr. C running amok, order is threatened. The Mike and arm/tree we see in The Return seem to be working toward restoring order, primarily by restoring Dale Cooper. To us, that's good. DoppelTree/Arm attempts to screw that up, which to us is bad.
I suspect that Mike's arm/tree as a long-time lodge entity can see the danger Bob and Mr. C running amok can pose, and that although formerly relishing the pain and sorrow inflicted to obtain garmanbozia, realizes that there are more important things than that. I view it as a maturing more than "turning good." They are who they are but Mr.C and Bob could change everything for BOTH lodges, and they don't want that.
Thank you, that's an interesting answer!
Fire walk with