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(@ustio)
Lodger
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
 
I think the creators are playing with this in production....

Nothing has been hidden, and nothing has been encoded in the production. Twin Peaks on a reference LCD, OLED, plasma or CRT (be it SD or HD) should look near-identical. There are standards that a display should follow, these can be objectively measured. One standard (the EOTF or less accurately ‘gamma’) covers how dark to light is displayed, and the standard for new display technologies is designed to visually match that of a CRT.

 

Watching the Jeffries scene on a calibrated HD TV monitor - the corner and back wall are clearly visible… same for the radiator and wall panel gaps flickering in and out of view (they make up the wall before the reveal). And the scene simply looks great. It looks near-identical on my professional Grade 1 Sony BVM CRT which I still have. At FotoKem the scene would have been graded on a tightly calibrated display with similar results.

 

It’s a simple case of your HDTV being out of whack, and your CRT not so. 

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Posted : 26/08/2017 12:02 pm
urbanCCD liked
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: ustio
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
 
I think the creators are playing with this in production....

Nothing has been hidden, and nothing has been encoded in the production. Twin Peaks on a reference LCD, OLED, plasma or CRT (be it SD or HD) should look near-identical. There are standards that a display should follow, these can be objectively measured. One standard (the EOTF or less accurately ‘gamma’) covers how dark to light is displayed, and the standard for new display technologies is designed to visually match that of a CRT.

 

Watching the Jeffries scene on a calibrated HD TV monitor - the corner and back wall are clearly visible… same for the radiator and wall panel gaps flickering in and out of view (they make up the wall before the reveal). And the scene simply looks great. It looks near-identical on my professional Grade 1 Sony BVM CRT which I still have. At FotoKem the scene would have been graded on a tightly calibrated display with similar results.

 

It’s a simple case of your HDTV being out of whack, and your CRT not so. 

Right, that was the point of the entire 'settings' issue; definitely it is 'out of whack', and 'out of whack' for that scene in particular(as well as other certain scenes throughout the series), while I have had no trouble with other parts of the episodes on the same settings....And this 'out of whack' problem is exactly how things are hidden, subtly, and internal to the production of the series.....the settings issue you mentioned is exactly how it is hidden, plenty of people out there who are not experts on the issue are having the same problem

some people have earlier asked about 'black out' moments in other episodes(for example, the moments right after the Janey E/Dougie sex scene, there is a thread on it where people were trying to figure out what happened, since they could not see on the HD tvs), which shows that its not simply my HD TV in particular, but a more widespread issue, and I would say its likely intentional given the amount of 'fine tuning' done to this series.  And to get the quality of visual experience and definition I had on the SD/tube tv would require setting my HD tv to a place that makes the rest of the episode 'out of whack'..... maybe there is an ideal setting for the entire thing that lessens the 'out of whackness', maybe you can share the specifications? Maybe the 'fine tuning' of this series brings out a general problem with default calibrations on HD TVs, as apparently the creators are aware of, since they explicitly warned against it(in comparison to SD/tube tvs) on the criterion release of Eraserhead(another hint it was likely intentional to production)....,

also we had the old movie that Dougie was watching on the HD TV that looked poor because of the black bars that appear on these movies when watched on HD tvs, much better viewing on the old tube tvs for this type of media imo......(then Dougie remembers his 'old ways' via the Gordon Cole references, fries himself, he might very well be having a related 'out of whack' problem, all is not right in HD/viva las vegas paradise, something missing he had during the first series shown in the era of entertainment where tube tvs were the standard, something is 'out of whack'..., now has to 're-calibrate'...., Dougie's 'default settings' not working out so well....)

thats what im trying to get at....but I would appreciate it if you could share the specifications, if they are 'objectively measured' then they are easy to share via numbers, etc., and then I can fix the problem for the later episodes... TVs are machines, can program them with numbers easily, no freedom there, aside from the one doing the programing, who can think, has subjectivity and freedom(like Dougie who is having trouble, to say the least, with his new 'programing'), Who can program the computer, decide on the 'objective measurement' that fits the instrument? thats where freedom and decision comes into play, not nearly as simple as programing a computer, or watching the biological machinery of natural life, which is relatively petrified and mechanical(in comparison to thinking, passion, etc.), nature then goes the way of slow decay and death(sometimes wild wrath and catastrophe, not very good default 'objective measurement' from mother nature here, huh?, and need freedom and decision, not 'objectively measurable', but subjective, in order to deal with it properly), all sounds very much like suburbanite Dougie and his problems, but if there's freedom, then its the ones dictating/forcing the 'objective measurement' to him then who have the problem, isn't it, theyve gotta justify it in terms of freedom, thinking people with autonomy, justice, right?  And then we can properly say that the 'factual' outcome better not be 'convenience store' or rancho rosa alongside billionaire programmers, wait, that 'objective measurement' not looking so nice anymore, it is incorrect........

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Posted : 26/08/2017 4:56 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

Check out this thread, many people having the same 'settings' problem, seeing only black there...it is 'out of whack' by default, hiding whole scenes and clues....

http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-part-10/darkness/

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Posted : 26/08/2017 7:33 pm
(@ustio)
Lodger
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
Posted by: ustio
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
 
I think the creators are playing with this in production....

Nothing has been hidden, and nothing has been encoded in the production. Twin Peaks on a reference LCD, OLED, plasma or CRT (be it SD or HD) should look near-identical. There are standards that a display should follow, these can be objectively measured. One standard (the EOTF or less accurately ‘gamma’) covers how dark to light is displayed, and the standard for new display technologies is designed to visually match that of a CRT.

 

Watching the Jeffries scene on a calibrated HD TV monitor - the corner and back wall are clearly visible… same for the radiator and wall panel gaps flickering in and out of view (they make up the wall before the reveal). And the scene simply looks great. It looks near-identical on my professional Grade 1 Sony BVM CRT which I still have. At FotoKem the scene would have been graded on a tightly calibrated display with similar results.

 

It’s a simple case of your HDTV being out of whack, and your CRT not so. 

Right, that was the point of the entire 'settings' issue; definitely it is 'out of whack', and 'out of whack' for that scene in particular(as well as other certain scenes throughout the series), while I have had no trouble with other parts of the episodes on the same settings....And this 'out of whack' problem is exactly how things are hidden, subtly, and internal to the production of the series.....the settings issue you mentioned is exactly how it is hidden, plenty of people out there who are not experts on the issue are having the same problem

some people have earlier asked about 'black out' moments in other episodes(for example, the moments right after the Janey E/Dougie sex scene, there is a thread on it where people were trying to figure out what happened, since they could not see on the HD tvs), which shows that its not simply my HD TV in particular, but a more widespread issue, and I would say its likely intentional given the amount of 'fine tuning' done to this series.  

 

 

You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the dark and shadowy scenes are intentionally so in order to be “hidden” for some viewers and not others. But the simple reality is that the dark and shadowy scenes are so because they are intended to look dark and shadowy. The only way to guarantee every viewer sees every detail is to make dark scenes excessively bright or illuminated - this is simply never going to happen with David Lynch, it is a hallmark of his work and artistic intent.

 

I can assure you that if everyone watched the new series on their old CRTs, a similar proportion of people would have similar issues to a similar extent, if not worse. Crushed blacks and missing shadow detail are an age old problem on consumer sets, especially using out-of-the-box settings or picture modes. Long before flat screens took off, many DVDs had calibration patterns to encourage viewers to set up their screens more accurately in this regard.

 

 

As for ‘fixing’ your HDTV, I’d love to “write it down for ya”, but it’s not that simple...

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Posted : 26/08/2017 8:19 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: ustio
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
Posted by: ustio
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
 
I think the creators are playing with this in production....

Nothing has been hidden, and nothing has been encoded in the production. Twin Peaks on a reference LCD, OLED, plasma or CRT (be it SD or HD) should look near-identical. There are standards that a display should follow, these can be objectively measured. One standard (the EOTF or less accurately ‘gamma’) covers how dark to light is displayed, and the standard for new display technologies is designed to visually match that of a CRT.

 

Watching the Jeffries scene on a calibrated HD TV monitor - the corner and back wall are clearly visible… same for the radiator and wall panel gaps flickering in and out of view (they make up the wall before the reveal). And the scene simply looks great. It looks near-identical on my professional Grade 1 Sony BVM CRT which I still have. At FotoKem the scene would have been graded on a tightly calibrated display with similar results.

 

It’s a simple case of your HDTV being out of whack, and your CRT not so. 

Right, that was the point of the entire 'settings' issue; definitely it is 'out of whack', and 'out of whack' for that scene in particular(as well as other certain scenes throughout the series), while I have had no trouble with other parts of the episodes on the same settings....And this 'out of whack' problem is exactly how things are hidden, subtly, and internal to the production of the series.....the settings issue you mentioned is exactly how it is hidden, plenty of people out there who are not experts on the issue are having the same problem

some people have earlier asked about 'black out' moments in other episodes(for example, the moments right after the Janey E/Dougie sex scene, there is a thread on it where people were trying to figure out what happened, since they could not see on the HD tvs), which shows that its not simply my HD TV in particular, but a more widespread issue, and I would say its likely intentional given the amount of 'fine tuning' done to this series.  

 

 

You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the dark and shadowy scenes are intentionally so in order to be “hidden” for some viewers and not others. But the simple reality is that the dark and shadowy scenes are so because they are intended to look dark and shadowy. The only way to guarantee every viewer sees every detail is to make dark scenes excessively bright or illuminated - this is simply never going to happen with David Lynch, it is a hallmark of his work and artistic intent.

 

I can assure you that if everyone watched the new series on their old CRTs, a similar proportion of people would have similar issues to a similar extent, if not worse. Crushed blacks and missing shadow detail are an age old problem on consumer sets, especially using out-of-the-box settings or picture modes. Long before flat screens took off, many DVDs had calibration patterns to encourage viewers to set up their screens more accurately in this regard.

 

 

As for ‘fixing’ your HDTV, I’d love to “write it down for ya”, but it’s not that simple...

I dont think its as simple as 'dark scenes are meant to be dark', since Lynch is notorious for using unconventional and tricky lighting, not just 'being dark'(check Inland Empire) that uses both light and darkness in strange ways that go against what is usually 'simply meant' by lighting use, or 'wanting to be dark', etc.. So what we get here is some kind of a more developed idea behind why things are bright or dark, turning lighting itself into something more developed, with more intent behind 'dark scenes meant to be dark' and where and when lighting and darkness appears.

  So we got the very bright Big Ed/Norma scene, then the very dark convenience store scene, within which certain parts of the scene had 'patches of darkness' covering up parts of the screen(for example a suspiscious patch of darkness darker than the rest of the room covering on the door to the hidden control room, and darkness in the area of the flickering radiator). Behind the patches of darkness you can see something that you can barely make out, and using this specific of lighting in a mystery show where people are searching every detail for clues is almost asking for someone to mess with the settings or take a closer look at what is behind the darkness....so that lighting, read 'being dark', is not just an evil 'hallmark', but a more specific and interactive element of the visual landscape and the mystery of twin peaks itself, with patches of darkness used to provoke someone to discover something else out about it.  There have been plenty of visual clues and hidden elements, barely visible or shown only for a second, and intentionally done so, but I guess lighting is somehow mysterious absent from this visual landscape of mystery, right up  front and done for certain.  For instance, a mystery can work like this: not telling everyone something up front, but provoking them to speculate, or try and 'put the puzzle together', 'solve the mystery', ask 'why would that person say that', 'who killed Laura Palmer?', why was that only shown for a second, why did the frames skip at that moment, why was there a black spot there in the lighting? etc. In fact this show is pretty much reliant on the use of mystery because the dialogue is so sparse, its pretty much impossible to watch without finding things 'meant to be hidden from some viewers and not others', thats the entire point of mystery shows, and no fine tuning your tv set is going to get rid of that, but it may help you find some hidden clues behind the dark patches intentionally put there by the specific lighting technique Lynch has employed here........And my approach paid off and led me to clues I would have otherwise missed....  So yes, 'dark scenes were meant to be dark', but the lighting here has got more intent behind it than just 'trying to be dark', its more complex and 'fine tuned' and is working nicely inside a mystery show....  Its about trying to solve a mystery, and cannot be watched by just being given what the director/creator, intends, completely the wrong way to be watching a mystery show, makes for a poor mystery; maybe not for Dougie, but we see what happens here, time to go for the electricity socket.....

So there are definitely things 'encoded' into the production that use lighting as a tool to hide certain things with darkness, things are put there intentionally, then during production a lighting technique is used so that those 'things that are put there' are 'meant to be dark', to hide them from the view of viewers, and I can guarantee you that on any TV set, some will see them and some wont; its a standard problem of mystery shows, or movies that use crazy lighting techniques for visual effect......

And I have never calibrated my old tube/SD tv, nor my HD tv, but it works perfectly on my SD/tube tv, while on my HD tv I am experiencing the common problem that many others have had of getting very specific appearances of 'dark spots', or blackouts where you miss clues or entire scenes.  And if it was the same problem even when the SD tvs were the standard, I guess it was just luck here that my SD/Tube tv from decades ago happen to be calibrated 'properly' for a show to be made decades in the future, but I wouldnt be surprised in the least if this was intentionally 'encoded' into the production.....especially with film makers who like to fine tune every little detail in strange ways that create extremely specific visual effect that goes far beyond 'wanting to be dark'.......

I am not sure how I could rationally relate 'just letting the director show me whatever is given to me', what is 'meant to be dark', and then altering my televisions settings to find some kind of 'correct' setting that I know for certain is the setting the director of the show prefers; and also then I would be against the standard setting released by television producers who intended their televisions to be that way....either I would have to betray the filmmaker or the television producer, not sure which enemy I want.....So you have come to the conclusion that 'objectively measured out reference setting' you have found is the ideal one for all televisions, and for a show that uses crazy extremes in lighting, and visuals in general, extremes which test the reference points, even hiding visual elements of the scene when passing these reference points......and I bet there are reference points here better than others, namely the standard issue 'out of the box' tube tv settings from decades ago, just by accident. But I am serious, you mentioned that there are 'correct' settings for SD, HD, OLED, etc. TVs, that mine was not calibrated properly, and that you have both SD and HD television and have successfully found the ideal calibration for Twin Peaks that allows you to access the show correctly, so I am just asking you what this is.....its not too complicated here, and it is objectively measured ....not hard here, there just a bar for brightness, color, tint, sharpness, etc., with number, simple as writing out a set of categorized numbers.....unless 'its not as simple as all that' and you have opened up your televisions, added parts, 'turned some screws', etc....which may not be a useless task, but I will admit is beyond my current capabilities; if you know what an HD television is, and you know the correct settings, just a simple matter of typing them out here.....actually it would be a big help, people here could then watch twin peaks in the ideal television settings, and avoid all those 'dark moments' of not having their tv calibrated properly...

 

 

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Posted : 26/08/2017 11:15 pm
(@ustio)
Lodger

Sorry, only saw this post now. You misunderstand: I didn’t mention settings, I mentioned standards.

 

Settings are just things you can adjust on a TV - there are millions of TV sets, and millions of settings, and what they produce could be anything.

 

TV standards are industry-wide. Their purpose is to standardise the relationship between the input video signal and the output on the display. In other words, because of the standards, we know what any signal going in should look like coming out. We can measure objectively how accurate a display is using test signals and a spectrophotometer. Usually a set of colour patches will be used (of various luminance, hue and saturation) with the result plotted, and error measured.

 

One simple standard is the level of black and white, all grey values in-between should be visible. The exact brightness of those values relative to each other is also a standard. This is how we know what the scene in Twin Peaks is intended to look like, and how we know that the corner of the room should be clearly visible. 

 

Consumer TVs tend to come out of the box in ridiculous modes, nowhere near the standards. Even selecting the best mode is usually quite inaccurate. Professional video monitors for grading have the sole purpose of being as accurate as possible.

 

Setting the black point can be done visually using a test pattern as included on DVD calibration discs or DVDs of movies. This will usually include a background of black, and bars or images of 1, 2 or 3 greyscale values just above black. The display is meant to be adjusted until above-black is just distinguishable from black. The idea is, you won’t now miss out on any shadow detail. The corner of the room in the Jeffries scene is about 10 values above black.

 

Using the term calibration for this procedure on a consumer TV is misleading - it implies the display is fundamentally accurate and brought into perfect line (like weighing scales which are overreading by 2kg might be calibrated against reference scales). But this may not be the case, and in adjusting this parameter you may upset other parameters, like you have experienced (if you are in a default picture mode as you say, it is not too surprising).

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Posted : 30/08/2017 6:42 pm
(@esther)
Lodger

At this point I'm pretty sure  that Mike was calling. Mike, no Philip Gerard.  Philip Gerard got freed from Mike, and has nothing to do with him now,  just like Leland has nothing to do with BOB. The question, who is the  host of Mike.

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Posted : 02/09/2017 5:25 am
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