My problem with this is that we don't have mystery: harmonious, profound and beautiful; we have confusion: chaotic, meaningless and ugly.
Too many plot threads that have served no purpose and gone nowhere: the 119 lady, Audrey, Buenos Aires. Even the New York thread has just been abandoned. Some of it is plain contradictory (the coordinates - Betty or Ruth?). I have moments when I think too much of it was just lashed together and wasn't really thought through.
My problem with this is that we don't have mystery: harmonious and beautiful; we have confusion: chaotic and ugly.
Too many plot threads that have served no purpose and gone nowhere: the 119 lady, Audrey, Buenos Aires. Even the New York thread has just been abandoned. Some of it is plain contradictory (the coordinates - Betty or Ruth?). I have moments when I think too much of it was just lashed together and wasn't really thought through.
My problem with this is that we don't have mystery: harmonious and beautiful; we have confusion: chaotic and ugly.
Too many plot threads that have served no purpose and gone nowhere: the 119 lady, Audrey, Buenos Aires. Even the New York thread has just been abandoned. Some of it is plain contradictory (the coordinates - Betty or Ruth?). I have moments when I think too much of it was just lashed together and wasn't really thought through.
My problem with this is that we don't have mystery: harmonious and beautiful; we have confusion: chaotic and ugly.
Too many plot threads that have served no purpose and gone nowhere: the 119 lady, Audrey, Buenos Aires. Even the New York thread has just been abandoned. Some of it is plain contradictory (the coordinates - Betty or Ruth?). I have moments when I think too much of it was just lashed together and wasn't really thought through.
They have 4 hours left. Think about that, 4 hours. That's twice as long as a long movie.
3 hours now (unless the last episode is double length??)
Yep, of course. I lost track. Anyhow, 3 hours is enough time. You could do an entire epic movie in that.
Anyhow, I don't think all questions will be answered but I'm happy to stick around and see what comes next.
My problem with this is that we don't have mystery: harmonious, profound and beautiful; we have confusion: chaotic, meaningless and ugly.
Too many plot threads that have served no purpose and gone nowhere: the 119 lady, Audrey, Buenos Aires. Even the New York thread has just been abandoned. Some of it is plain contradictory (the coordinates - Betty or Ruth?). I have moments when I think too much of it was just lashed together and wasn't really thought through.
Your frustrations are understandable. I was frustrated with all the cliffhangers in part 15, but laughed about it as the number of them increased.
Here's my take:
Do we really need to revisit the NY thread? All I need from what happened there is where Experiment Model is now. Not knowing if the box was created for Coop or Experiment Model is a classic Lynch unsolved mystery (as is why the couple was killed). If there is more to it and a revisit is required, then cool. It will happen. What are you wanting to revisit in the NY thread?
As for the 1-1-9 lady, I simply drew a parallel to the drug addled folks in Twin Peaks. And, her son, it seemed to me, was used as our eyes to monitor the happenings across the street. Their purpose has been served, IMO. I don't need to know that she died of an overdose and her son is now in foster care. Are you looking for an explaination of her odd behavior or something else?
Really not certain Buenos Aires. It may be important.
The Audrey subplot will most certainly be resolved as much as they intend it to be. Are you dissatisfied with how it's being presented?
While many subplots are discrete, several are being swept into a single pile on the floor of the Roadhouse. In other words, the seeming chaos has been gradually returning to a semblance of order (atmosphere and "feel" included). This, I think, was intentional and mirrors Agent Cooper's development this season, IMO.
Lynch and Frost spent several years on this project and also had preexisting material to work through. I seriously doubt anything was lashed together unless it was intentionally made to appear that way. I imagine the story had less mystery (and yes confusion), but the way in which Lynch is telling the story on film creates additional mysteries (and confusion). Will be interesting to eventually read the script.
And, yes, there are three hours left. I may have similar criticisms to yours after viewing those three hours.
We could summarize this as saying: "I"m hoping most things remain a mystery".
Hi dawg,
Or on a more meta level, we could summarize this as saying: "I worship Lynch so much (which is in no short supply on this Forum), I will accept almost any ending to Twin Peaks."
Please note, I am not singling anyone out. (I'm looking at you, Bad Fan!)
[Dons fireproof suit.] 😉
- /< /\ /> -
We could summarize this as saying: "I"m hoping most things remain a mystery".
Hi dawg,
Or on a more meta level, we could summarize this as saying: "I worship Lynch so much (which is in no short supply on this Forum), I will accept almost any ending to Twin Peaks."
Please note, I am not singling anyone out. (I'm looking at you, Bad Fan!)
[Dons fireproof suit.] 😉
- /< /\ /> -
Ha, I'm not trying to have a flame war, Ric! [You can hang up your suit again, lol]
That said, I have to admit I don't care for indictments of my affection for David Lynch that call into question my "critical faculties" (c.f. Yambag's rebukes of my posts elsewhere).
Others have persuaded me that it's totally reasonable for forum partcipants/Twin Peaks fans to use the forum to lament the show not being how they'd hoped or to sleuth/crack the case... or, for that matter, to assign local/discrete/concrete meanings to every potential signifier/network of potential signifiers. For my part, I tend to get a little too prescriptive or doctrinaire, something KDawg and others have rightly taken issue with.
But I do hope that some viewers have the experience Lynch provided me-- an epiphany that made me appreciate how rewarding film and television can be when artist/audience slacken the restraints of the implied contract of genre/convention/legibility etc.
I don't wish to suggest Lynch (or The Return) should be immune to evaluation, but I do think that a sensible approach to an abstract, non-literal, or surreal artwork is a measure of deference toward the mystery of the artist's intentions.
That's not how many forum participants seem to see The Return-- which is totally fine-- I merely wish to invite like-minded viewers to caucus around what doesn't need resolution or rational explanation -- that is, to redirect attention toward either themes, topics, etc. or what other types of television, film, art, scholarship, etc. lend insight into how we might understand The Return.
That said, I can see how my "ten hot takes" at the top of this thread might have alienated some. They were certainly hasty and may have been unfairly prescriptive.
Y'all do (each of) you, in other words.
My problem with this is that we don't have mystery: harmonious and beautiful; we have confusion: chaotic and ugly.
Too many plot threads that have served no purpose and gone nowhere: the 119 lady, Audrey, Buenos Aires. Even the New York thread has just been abandoned. Some of it is plain contradictory (the coordinates - Betty or Ruth?). I have moments when I think too much of it was just lashed together and wasn't really thought through.
Disagree so strongly with the statement that many plot threads serves no purpose. They might not make sense in a logical straightforward story line but Lynch is doing surreal stuff here... stuff that is supposed to be felt, not understood.
I go along with the thought that much (if not most) of what we see on the screen is in somebody's imagination. How many clues do we need from Lynch & Frost to understand this??... the log lady speaking of dreams, a dream within a dream statement, the Wizard of Oz references, the reference to Sunset Blvd where a dead man is telling the story, and most important: Tammy mentioning of a Tulpa, etc., etc.....
All these surreal scenes are showing us what a character is feeling, thinking, or dreaming. The details don't matter.
All these surreal scenes are showing us what a character is feeling, thinking, or dreaming. The details don't matter.
Nor do they tell us which character is feeling, thinking or dreaming what!
And, IMO, the details are pregnant with meaning that we don't/won't likely ever have access to...
...No matter how may connections are mapped or how much speculation or conjecture takes place!
...though pursuing such meanings does certainly make good sport, as much of the activity on this forum attests!
We could summarize this as saying: "I"m hoping most things remain a mystery".
Or on a more meta level, we could summarize this as saying: "I worship Lynch so much (which is in no short supply on this Forum), I will accept almost any ending to Twin Peaks."
Please note, I am not singling anyone out. (I'm looking at you, Bad Fan!)
[Dons fireproof suit.] 😉
Hi Bad Fan,
Ha, I'm not trying to have a flame war, Ric! [You can hang up your suit again, lol]
That said, I have to admit I don't care for indictments of my affection for David Lynch that call into question my "critical faculties" (c.f. Yambag's rebukes of my posts elsewhere).
Anyone who reads more than one of your posts would know that you don't lack for "critical faculties." You are a very articulate and very thoughtful Forum contributor.
I appreciate what you said in the original post here about not needing (or as Mr. C would say not wanting) a resolution to the mysteries of the show. In fact, anyone remotely familiar familiar with Lynch's oeuvre really shouldn't expect very much in the way of clarification.
I would just argue that precisely because of his reputation Lynch can get away with dangling plot threads much more than almost anyone other showrunner ever could.
Here, I will once again mention LOST. Back in the newsgroup days, there was a superb group (alt.tv.lost) that was very similar to this one. People loved the show, loved the references to literature, did tons of research into tiny barely-perceptible clues, and endlessly discussed how all the answers to the numerous mysteries would be resolved.
When many of those questions were left unanswered, and since Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse didn't have the cache Lynch does, many, many fans went absolutely ballistic. And I'm not talking about casual fans, either. In fact, it seemed that the more effort one put in to understanding the show, the more people vehemently resented the ending.
That will not happen here.
But the fact that it won't leads to an interesting question: How do we judge how good Twin Peaks: the Return is?
For the Lynch lover, the question is already answered - it's great! Just another in a long line of Lynchian masterpieces! Who cares that we never found out who Judy is, who cares what happened to Josie, who cares why Dougie turned into a little gold ball? It's Lynch, man!
Don't get me wrong. I was as atomic-bombed by Part 8 as much as any other Fireman or Senorita Dido. I just hope Lynch doesn't lean on his reputation for eccentricity as an excuse for being lazy about answering what I consider to be integral questions about the show.
Others have persuaded me that it's totally reasonable for forum partcipants/Twin Peaks fans to use the forum to lament the show not being how they'd hoped or to sleuth/crack the case... or, for that matter, to assign local/discrete/concrete meanings to every potential signifier/network of potential signifiers. For my part, I tend to get a little too prescriptive or doctrinaire, something KDawg and others have rightly taken issue with.
But I do hope that some viewers have the experience Lynch provided me-- an epiphany that made me appreciate how rewarding film and television can be when artist/audience slacken the restraints of the implied contract of genre/convention/legibility etc.
I don't wish to suggest Lynch (or The Return) should be immune to evaluation, but I do think that a sensible approach to an abstract, non-literal, or surreal artwork is a measure of deference toward the mystery of the artist's intentions.
That's not how many forum participants seem to see The Return-- which is totally fine-- I merely wish to invite like-minded viewers to caucus around what doesn't need resolution or rational explanation -- that is, to redirect attention toward either themes, topics, etc. or what other types of television, film, art, scholarship, etc. lend insight into how we might understand The Return.
Fair enough.
- /< /\ /> -
I like TPTR because it exercises the intuitive nature of my mind--for a while it wasn't pulling me in and then it began to draw me back in like a tide. If it didn't compel me enough I would not watch it. There are so many shows and movies that are well-written, acted, directed (in some ways much more efficiently that this) that don't compel me to watch. Like The Americans, for example--it seems like a wonderful program but I'm not compelled to binge it. If you are, don't hate me and I may watch it eventually and get hooked. It doesn't have the wonderful disruptive quality of this show. (Mr. Robot does and I can't wait for the next installment of that. It also has some of the potential weaknesses of TPTR because of its disruptive narrative style, mainly the red herring factor.)
Why do people watch it if they think it's awful? I guess they keep hoping something will happen to tie up the loose ends. The guessing games of who Judy "really" is or who Linda "really" is, or which Cooper is "real" or who is going to die next take up so much space, and can be fun, but as soon as those questions are answered (a big assumption) there's a bit of emptiness. I like questions that can keep being discussed after the show ends.
I'm just not feeling it any more. The theory side of things, that is. Seriously, I'm totally sick to death of 'em.
I enjoy each episode for what it is and trying somehow to fit it into what's gone before, but as to where it's going, I have no idea. Not a single one and, as I said in other threads, I'm happy with that. I have never in my entire life watched a show where I had no idea what's coming next. Most books I work out long before halfway through, so I then have to rely on the skill of the writer to make it interesting enough to keep turning the pages.
Frost and Lynch have gone the next step, IMO. Created something totally unpredictable but watchable at the same time. Yes, it's disjointed, yes it's frustrating but to me that's half the fun.
I'll be extremely disappointed if we get a Lost or St Elsewhere ending, or even a 80s Dallas "It was all a dream" cop out but otherwise, I'm happy with things so far and theories be buggered.
I see throwing theories around us just a bit of fun to bide the time until the next episode is aired. The thing I've always loved with Lynchs work is the feel of it. I don't watch horror films because I just don't like them but I really enjoy the unease I feel from his work which sticks with you for days or weeks after watching.
Fire walk with