Since this has gone way off topic already, and the topic was answered on the first page anyway, let's just keep going with the new current topic, eh? 😉
We're all gonna differ on our opinions. Can we all agree to that? Hm.
Again, some of the stuff I've read on this forum about "giving up" or "quitting," about how people can't believe this is how they're doing it, it sucks, I'm disappointed because it's not what I wanted.... I stayed quiet on that. I disagreed and thought it was a little silly to be thinking those things so early on, but I just didn't want to jump in on it. I'm finally saying something now, maybe because I know we're getting close to the end and I think we should start getting closer to wrapping it all up. Maybe a second watching will make me feel better about 12. I mean, i didn't hate it in the first place, but I think I must've felt like Rhiannon's husband feels about Lynch's stuff for this one episode...and I tend to like weird/abnormal/out-of-the-ordinary type stuff.
I wonder what kind of an impact binge watching has had, consciously or subconsciously, on the typical, old-style format of series watching. The ability to have instant gratification and watch everything at once if we so choose, vs. having to wait a WHOLE WEEK to find out the next piece of the story, and having to wait 3.5 months to find out what the whole story is. (I won't even mention BBC Sherlock's cliffhangers.)
For whatever it's worth, this is the only show that I watch right now that I NEED to watch as it's on...or, at least, the same night that it's on. And it's only the second show that I've ever sought out a fan forum for, the first being Lost, which was also a "gotta watch it right away" show for me. I suppose that if the internet was around back then as it is now, I probably would've done so for Quantum Leap. 🙂
The work of David Lynch is not designed for a single viewing or for immediate gratification. It's not a shot of freeze-dried, instant coffee. It's a pot of the good stuff. It needs time to perculate a while before all the different tastes and aromas can be truly appreciated.
Using coffee is a perfect analogy bc half the episodes I need a coffee to stay awake for it 🙂
Since this has gone way off topic already, and the topic was answered on the first page anyway, let's just keep going with the new current topic, eh? 😉
We're all gonna differ on our opinions. Can we all agree to that? Hm.
Again, some of the stuff I've read on this forum about "giving up" or "quitting," about how people can't believe this is how they're doing it, it sucks, I'm disappointed because it's not what I wanted.... I stayed quiet on that. I disagreed and thought it was a little silly to be thinking those things so early on, but I just didn't want to jump in on it. I'm finally saying something now, maybe because I know we're getting close to the end and I think we should start getting closer to wrapping it all up. Maybe a second watching will make me feel better about 12. I mean, i didn't hate it in the first place, but I think I must've felt like Rhiannon's husband feels about Lynch's stuff for this one episode...and I tend to like weird/abnormal/out-of-the-ordinary type stuff.
I wonder what kind of an impact binge watching has had, consciously or subconsciously, on the typical, old-style format of series watching. The ability to have instant gratification and watch everything at once if we so choose, vs. having to wait a WHOLE WEEK to find out the next piece of the story, and having to wait 3.5 months to find out what the whole story is. (I won't even mention BBC Sherlock's cliffhangers.)
For whatever it's worth, this is the only show that I watch right now that I NEED to watch as it's on...or, at least, the same night that it's on. And it's only the second show that I've ever sought out a fan forum for, the first being Lost, which was also a "gotta watch it right away" show for me. I suppose that if the internet was around back then as it is now, I probably would've done so for Quantum Leap. 🙂
The first third of the season should be like a roller coaster going up he hill. Second third when you get up top and admire the scenery. Final third imo should be going down the coaster. The fact that lynch is JIST introducing audrey to the mix tells me we aren't close to the downhill..
I get what you're saying. However, the bottom line is that people watch TV to be entertained. It's supposed to be enjoyable. If people come away from watching something with a feeling that they have had their time wasted, it's failed as entertainment.
I think the reason most films and TV follow a typical structure and tight editing is because that's what works. That's what's most entertaining for people.
It's like if you build a car with triangular wheels. It may work as an artistic statement, but it doesn't work as a car. Similarly, if you create TV that makes people feel like you're wasting their time, you may think you're making some kind of artistic statement, but it doesn't really work as entertainment. People aren't being entertained.
And how does Mark Frost feel about all this, I wonder? He wrote the script with him, but he didn't direct it. I wonder if sometimes he's been watching it and thinking, "No, this scene is going on for far too long". I mean, you can't just write stuff and then film it and not cut anything. There's a reason why superfluous footage gets cut.
And this whole thing about only giving actor their lines and not the whole script. So this means no table reads where they get a feel for the pacing and whether scenes actually work or not? Rather, they just write one huge script, film it all, not cut anything out, and put the whole thing out as a broadcast. Sorry, but I feel like that experiment has failed a bit.
Or perhaps they did cut a bunch of stuff. Maybe this would be 36 episodes long if nothing was cut, and we'd have a whole hour of Audrey screaming at her husband about Billy.
laughingatsky, I think we'll need to agree to disagree here, but I can't help but read your statements (and others) as a circular argument predicated on certain assumptions that extrapolate from individual preferences to sweeping prescriptions of how The Return ought to be. The central assumptions seem to be, OTOH, that TV, by its nature, should be entertaining and, OTOH, that what the forum participant finds entertaining reflects what is universally entertaining: "It's either entertaining or it isn't, and if I don't find it entertaining, it isn't." I don't begrudge anyone their right to express discomfort and dissatisfaction with Lynch's pacing and editing being different than what a given viewer is normally accustomed to, but I do feel an obligation to suggest that voicing such misgivings is of dubious value to Pieter's Welcome To Twin Peaks web forum...
For an audience to bring expectations they feel Lynch must answer in order for the capstone artwork of his career to be deemed satisfactory strikes me as profoundly egotistical. Where I assert that what makes The Return interesting is the relative artistic autonomy that affords Lynch the freedom to potentially alienate viewers expecting entertainment, numerous viewers here have voiced that they expect-- nay, demand-- to be entertained. For these folks, if it ain't entertaining, it ain't television.
I'm ready to give up on television if one of the rare instances where it promises to surmount its traditionally cheap status as mindless entertainment is deemed "indulgent" or "tedious" by its fans, whose impatience reads-- to this participant-- as so much entitlement, "I want what I want, and I want it now."
I hope, for the benefit of these forums, that the impatient find the remaining episodes more satisfying. At least then one won't have to work to direct the forum discussion toward substantive interpretation, analysis etc. and away from what strikes me as impetuous statements of discomfort that precipitate petulant discussions and peripheral arguments.
Witness the "dialogue" between the two camps in this thread, in sum:
Camp Art: "Easy, folks! Let's withhold judgment until we've seen the entire film."
Camp Pop: "Why didn't David Lynch take my convenience/attention span/taste preferences into consideration when he edited his final, farewell film?!!"
Camp Art: "Well... Perhaps we might instead trust his artistic vision, at least until we've seen the complete work? After all, Lynch has made 10 feature films and a TV series that, taken together, reflect a landmark career that has been widely characterized as one of the most significant artistic contributions/film achievements of the "postmodern era" .... Maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt??... "
Camp Pop: "Nah. If he did his market research, he'd understand his obligation to make his television show entertaining-- he would respond to what is normative in our society-- that is, what people of my age, gender and taste demographic feel is entertaining, because this is what is important in our society. What else is TV for, if not for white men under 35?
Camp Art: *facepalm*
Since this has gone way off topic already, and the topic was answered on the first page anyway, let's just keep going with the new current topic, eh? 😉
We're all gonna differ on our opinions. Can we all agree to that? Hm.
Again, some of the stuff I've read on this forum about "giving up" or "quitting," about how people can't believe this is how they're doing it, it sucks, I'm disappointed because it's not what I wanted.... I stayed quiet on that. I disagreed and thought it was a little silly to be thinking those things so early on, but I just didn't want to jump in on it. I'm finally saying something now, maybe because I know we're getting close to the end and I think we should start getting closer to wrapping it all up. Maybe a second watching will make me feel better about 12. I mean, i didn't hate it in the first place, but I think I must've felt like Rhiannon's husband feels about Lynch's stuff for this one episode...and I tend to like weird/abnormal/out-of-the-ordinary type stuff.
I wonder what kind of an impact binge watching has had, consciously or subconsciously, on the typical, old-style format of series watching. The ability to have instant gratification and watch everything at once if we so choose, vs. having to wait a WHOLE WEEK to find out the next piece of the story, and having to wait 3.5 months to find out what the whole story is. (I won't even mention BBC Sherlock's cliffhangers.)
For whatever it's worth, this is the only show that I watch right now that I NEED to watch as it's on...or, at least, the same night that it's on. And it's only the second show that I've ever sought out a fan forum for, the first being Lost, which was also a "gotta watch it right away" show for me. I suppose that if the internet was around back then as it is now, I probably would've done so for Quantum Leap. 🙂
The first third of the season should be like a roller coaster going up he hill. Second third when you get up top and admire the scenery. Final third imo should be going down the coaster. The fact that lynch is JIST introducing audrey to the mix tells me we aren't close to the downhill..
Why should David Lynch's work conform to your expectations, Yambag? If we have a professional film critic in our midst, I'll defer to your authority, but I'm not sure why anyone should defer to your taste. Why do you feel others should?
Others have generalized from what is conventional that such conventions are, in fact, natural and, as such, correct. Orthodoxy about conventions of television editing, pacing, writing? Really?? What a sad, dreary world if folks rush to a) complain about their discomfort with something unconventional, then b) defend their preferences as the natural order to which others should conform.
Woof. Like I said before, I hope that you find what you're looking for, here or elsewhere.
Lynch and Frost are obviously poking the hornets' nest of viewer expectations with this series and relishing every moment. Ep 12 was just an exclamation point on their message.
Personally it's made me consider the ways and times in which I've made unreasonable demands as a viewer. Art needs to breathe and live as it is, and not be strangled by our egotistical desires.
The best way to get the old Dale Cooper back probably is to give up on him ever returning and being at peace with that.
Regarding art vs. pop, I think it's significant that Cooper keeps experiencing pop culture beats from the old series and yet none of them have successfully revived him.
Lynch and Frost are obviously poking the hornets' nest of viewer expectations with this series and relishing every moment. Ep 12 was just an exclamation point on their message.
Personally it's made me consider the ways and times in which I've made unreasonable demands as a viewer. Art needs to breathe and live as it is, and not be strangled by our egotistical desires.
The best way to get the old Dale Cooper back probably is to give up on him ever returning and being at peace with that.
Chris, I think you've encapsulated what I said over many meandering paragraphs!
Death is final, as anyone who has buried a loved one can attest. Alzheimer's is the "long goodbye," and aphasia and other cognitive disorders take loved ones as we know them from us-- at least in part--while keeping them present in body.
I hope others will consider the possibility that by denying the fan community Audrey and Dale Cooper, Lynch and Frost have poignantly thematized what we all have in common: none of us are getting out of here alive-- and all of us will have to eventually learn to accept the loss of the ones we love.
The personal impact of one person's death-- Laura Palmer's-- on a tight-knit community has successfully been expanded/developed to a commentary on the human condition.
I hope, for the benefit of these forums, that the impatient find the remaining episodes more satisfying. At least then one won't have to work to direct the forum discussion toward substantive interpretation, analysis etc. and away from what strikes me as impetuous statements of discomfort that precipitate petulant discussions and peripheral arguments.
With all due respect for those who are not satisfied, I think this is very important.
Badalamenti Fan I believe that a lot of your response comes from what you have been used to as an American audience and I can see how something as boldly different as The Return has you impassioned. However this forum and it's posters are fairly international.
I'm Northern Irish myself (incidentally I'm from the North Coast where a lot of GoT filming takes place) and used to Public Service Broadcasting from both Irish and British broadcasters. This has even spilled over to Channel 4 who self-describe as a Public Service Broadcaster paid for by advertising. As such television over here is more willing to take risks, unafraid to make niche programmes that won't appeal to the widest audience, not constantly searching for the bottom line in terms of returns.
So as you react towards the reactions, I hope that I nudge you into the view that not all posters on this forum are entirely steeped in American culture. Maybe as such we take these risks that Showtime embarked on more lightly.
As humans we will always make value judgements about things, it's part of our nature, you yourself have made judgements about The Return and decided that it is unequivocally worthy of attention, thought and debate. Others have made value judgements different to yours and voiced these thoughts on a forum designed for fans. They enjoy the show but have found elements of it dull and unworthy of further consideration. That may be difficult and against your own value judgement but it's not worth any less consideration or understanding.
Hi Gary,
I missed this in the rush. Thanks for another thoughtful response. I have to tell you that I'm not seeking to enforce a given response. Perhaps you are right and differences between US and European media environments account for some of the differences of opinion here. That might be fodder for further discussion. Nevertheless, I think I have fairly and consistently directed my line of critique/debate away from a dispute about differences of taste to a dispute about whether Lynch has any obligation to his impatient viewers that would justify their indignation. Some feel entitled to be satisfied-- I see the promise of more interesting discussion emerging from suspending expectations/preferences, and I've grown weary of others' asserting their tastes/preferences to be normative, justified, natural, or inevitable.
My issue is it just drags. There's stuff that i take away from episodes, but I feel that after 12 episodes, the same content could have been covered in 9 with very little being left out.
Why would this be desirable?
Why would removing all the extraneous/unneccessarily drawn out stuff be desirable?
Uh so the pace of the show would improve and not feel like I'm watching grass grow.
I know, it's "art". Spoiler, the "art" and drawn out scenes will ultimately lead to it not being renewed (if it's even left open to another season).
I'll eat my hat if The Return has a second season. The Return is a farewell, career-retrospective gesture. Lynch is free from answering to audience expectations. IMO, this is a rare and special thing. Others disagree, evidently.
Badalamenti Fan,
Just wanted to say, I feel ya! Albeit, you've been able to say what I've wanted to say in a much more rational and eloquent way.
I became a fan of Lynch when I checked out the original Twin Peaks from the library about 12 years ago. My boyfriend (now husband) found the pacing to be unbearable, and every time I would watch another Lynch film he would be overcome with anxiety and have to leave the room. I on the other hand loved the way his films made me feel. Yes it was frustrating and yes it made me anxious, but in the same way anticipating a surprise birthday party makes one anxious. It's exciting!
So while I do understand the frustration the slow pacing causes some viewers, what I don't understand is why they expected anything different from Lynch!? This has been his style from Eraserhead to Inland Empire! I learned early on not to have any expectations for answers from Lynch or for him to tell a story in a 'traditional' way, but to just enjoy the ride while it lasted (and to be grateful for every second I get to spend in his world).
I joined this forum hoping to share ideas with other Lynch and TP fans- but I've been disappointed that half of the comments are criticisms on the decisions made by the artist. (Why does everyone think they are a filmmaker?) So, I wanted to thank you, BF, for your posts.
Wow! Thanks, Rhiannon. Glad to hear you found my remarks thoughtful/worthwhile. Lynch is nothing if not polarizing!
Badalamenti Fan, you seem to be turning this into a discussion of whether or not we should be discussing Twin Peaks on the Twin Peaks forum. Seems a bit strange to me. You seem to have an issue with people expressing how they felt after watching an episode, whereas to me that seems to be part of the point of a forum such as this.
"I don't begrudge anyone their right to express discomfort and dissatisfaction with Lynch's pacing and editing being different than what a given viewer is normally accustomed to, but I do feel an obligation to suggest that voicing such misgivings is of dubious value to Pieter's Welcome To Twin Peaks web forum"
So you're fine with us expressing how we felt after viewing Twin Peaks, as long we don't do it here? Where should we do it then? In a forum about a different TV show?
And why do you feel an "obligation" to suggest this? Seem strange...
Maybe Pieter should change the name of the website to "Welcome to Twin Peaks, Unless There's Anything About It You Want to Criticise"?
I don't see anything in Pieter's short and simple forum rules that say we can't express how we feel if we thought an episode wasn't as good as it could have been:
Badalamenti Fan, you seem to be turning this into a discussion of whether or not we should be discussing Twin Peaks on the Twin Peaks forum. Seems a bit strange to me. You seem to have an issue with people expressing how they felt after watching an episode, whereas to me that seems to be part of the point of a forum such as this.
"I don't begrudge anyone their right to express discomfort and dissatisfaction with Lynch's pacing and editing being different than what a given viewer is normally accustomed to, but I do feel an obligation to suggest that voicing such misgivings is of dubious value to Pieter's Welcome To Twin Peaks web forum"
So you're fine with us expressing how we felt after viewing Twin Peaks, as long we don't do it here? Where should we do it then? In a forum about a different TV show?
And why do you feel an "obligation" to suggest this? Seem strange...
Maybe Pieter should change the name of the website to "Welcome to Twin Peaks, Unless There's Anything About It You Want to Criticise"?
I don't see anything in Pieter's short and simple forum rules that say we can't express how we feel if we thought an episode wasn't as good as it could have been:
We can agree to disagree. My premise was that I didn't find a discussion in the discussion you claim to be having. More like this: "I didn't like this episode." "I didn't like it either." "It must not be good." "Yeah, it's bad."
I find the participants who instead post questions and thoughtful commentary generate more substantive discussion than the sort of knee-jerk reactions Lynch is clearly aiming to provoke. I didn't invoke "the rules" you link to-- I wasn't suggesting I had such authority. If my impatience with others impatience struck you as intolerant, perhaps I owe you and others an apology... On the other hand, I think intolerance toward a certain kind of armchair quarterbacking is appropriate. Everyone feels they're entitled to broadcast their opinion, but some do so more thoughtfully and persuasively than others.
As I've said before, I hope the impatient folks find what they are looking for, whether in terms of a community of frustration or a new perspective on what TV can or should be.
Badalamenti Fan, you seem to be turning this into a discussion of whether or not we should be discussing Twin Peaks on the Twin Peaks forum. Seems a bit strange to me. You seem to have an issue with people expressing how they felt after watching an episode, whereas to me that seems to be part of the point of a forum such as this.
"I don't begrudge anyone their right to express discomfort and dissatisfaction with Lynch's pacing and editing being different than what a given viewer is normally accustomed to, but I do feel an obligation to suggest that voicing such misgivings is of dubious value to Pieter's Welcome To Twin Peaks web forum"
So you're fine with us expressing how we felt after viewing Twin Peaks, as long we don't do it here? Where should we do it then? In a forum about a different TV show?
And why do you feel an "obligation" to suggest this? Seem strange...
Maybe Pieter should change the name of the website to "Welcome to Twin Peaks, Unless There's Anything About It You Want to Criticise"?
I don't see anything in Pieter's short and simple forum rules that say we can't express how we feel if we thought an episode wasn't as good as it could have been:
In fact, I think it's pretty antisocial or trollish to first stake out a community of frustration within a community of fans, then take issue with others who feel impatient with this... But hey, this forum that is clearly designed to be large enough to accommodate a diversity of opinion and a variety of conversations, some more narrow than others. So I'll get in line.
Fire walk with