I think Gerrard would have been Coops go-between while in the lodge as we see him visualise in front of Dougie.
This is a good point. It's entirely possible that all the help/clues that came Cooper's way had to meet him where he was (in the waiting room).
I agree also that the Good Cooper likely made Doug, although my reasoning might be a bit different as to why. I see Cooper/Bob as a Taker, an entity that "wants" over "needs". I don't see him creating something as quickly as I can picture him destroying, I think creation would be beneath him.
When dougie disappears in the chair he doesn't just turn to the gold seed which is all I remembered the first time I watched it but on rewatch he turned into gold seed and then what looks like the evolution of the arms head so I'm assuming now that the Dopple arm created this tulpa for Mr c and as some of you have stated Mike just seemed a bit taken aback when he said "somebody made you"
the evolution of the arm seems to be on coopers side with giving clues and whatnot. And seemed bothered when he warned Mike that his Dopple was about. Plus the Dopple arm did try to mess coop up with the whole non exist ent thing . It just fits better that they create dougie , send the coop to nonexistence ,kill dougie with ring on and boom, 25 more years of baddassery for Mr c.
all of the people introduced into dougies life that he got in trouble with and now had people after him just seems perfectly set up for a kill at just the right time for it to be anyone else other than Mr c to be in control of this plan and it is a mighty fine plan if I do say so myself.
When dougie disappears in the chair he doesn't just turn to the gold seed which is all I remembered the first time I watched it but on rewatch he turned into gold seed and then what looks like the evolution of the arms head...
the evolution of the arm seems to be on coopers side with giving clues and whatnot... It just fits better that they create dougie , send the coop to nonexistence ,kill dougie with ring on and boom, 25 more years of baddassery for Mr c.
There are some good points here, though I respectfully disagree that 1) the Arm is helping Dale and 2) Bad Dale manufactured the Dougie tulpa.
Let address the points of agreement first. I do think its significant that there's a black, tar-like imposition on the gold seed when Dougie and Dale are exchanged. In my opinion, this reflects imposition and not origin. Imposition/perversion seems to be the Black Lodge's M.O. (as can be seen in the case of Laura Palmer). Perhaps the Black Lodge lacks direct access to gold seeds.
I also agree that the network of trouble surrounding Dougie Jones is a sign of Black Lodge activity, much of it likely orchestrated by Bad Dale himself. To my mind, this feels more like a contingency plan designed to ensnare an otherwise uncontrolled factor. It's possible that the exchange is the uncontrolled factor, but I think the gold seed in the Dougie tulpa argues against a Black Lodge origin.
I strongly disagree that the Arm is helpful. I feel recognizing the unhelpful activity of the Arm is key to understanding The Return. It can be detected throughout the series. In Aubrey's bardo scenes, it's quite explicit, but it's quite literally in almost every scene.
Reasons for concluding that the Arm is not helpful:
1) when Mike saw the face of God, he took the entire Arm off
2) Laura tells Cooper he can go out "now," while the Arm tells him certain preconditions must be met first
3) The Arm becomes Naido ("I sound like this"), and Naido warns Cooper away from the first electric socket
4) Naido becomes Red Room Diane, who first tries to dissuade him from crossing over ("Just think about it") and then perverts/diverts the Richard manifestation (sex scene). Note that Naido becomes Red Room Diane by touching Dale's left hand.
It's important to keep in mind that Cooper's lack of awareness feeds into these attempts at diversion and delay. Specifically, he clings to soothing facets of karma (e.g. coffee) and fails to recognize that what he thinks of as future is actually past (e.g. he says "I'll see you at the curtain call" when a sufficient curtain call had already taken place in the sheriff's office). Both times that he goes to look for Laura, he is making a big mistake.
There's another, less conclusive piece of evidence that suggests the Arm is unhelpful. Notice that the Fireman's clues often seem to be "two steps ahead." For example, he warns Dale of Richard and Linda before he's even entered the Dougie manifestation. I believe that the Season 2 clue "That gum you like will come back in style" warns Dale about the evolved Arm. What does the face of the evolved Arm look like?
I've discussed my view of the Arm's role in The Return in another post. I'll paste the link below. I don't want to get pedantic, so I think I'll be taking a break from the forum.
Relevant post:
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-season-3-forum/general-theory-of-the-return/
Good points from yourself also ....
one of the main points for me thinking of the arm being different to the original series is I only remember there being only one man from another place and he was definately a bit shifty especially when you watch the convenience store scene in fire walk with me but again only one of him.
the return gives you what's called the evolution of the arm and evolution would consist of change. If there is a Dopple version of the evolution of the arm you would think one of them would be bad and one be good as an opposite to one another.
I agree that the role of Naido is probably more complex than I have suggested, but I am strong in my conviction that mistrust of the Arm is warranted. I can't claim to have a full understanding of what the evolution of the Arm consists of. I think the Arm has something to do with appetites and addiction to karma, and this could take many forms. (Incidentally, this interpretation jibes well with the Doppel-Arm reducing targets to "non-existent.")
A minor point, but the Arm does have a doppelganger in the Season 2 finale. It says "doppelganger" the first time Dale encounters it and "wrong way" the second time (I might be misremembering this).
I am awestruck by how rich Season 3 is, and I've been trying to share that amazement by posting. I don't like how rigidly I've communicated my conclusions, but I think they'll prove helpful.
Mistrust the arm! Trust Laura as a guide, but remember that at some point one must overcome the need for guidance! Look for patterns, especially in shapes and colors!
I have to go with Occam's razor on this. Bad Cooper had a reason to create Dougie (send him back in his place) while good Cooper doesn't seem to have one.
But who knows? Maybe that razor needs some sharpening.
I have to go with Occam's razor on this. Bad Cooper had a reason to create Dougie (send him back in his place) while good Cooper doesn't seem to have one.
But who knows? Maybe that razor needs some sharpening.
Then
What reason did Mr C make Dougie?
And
Why was Mr C trying to have Dougie bumped off?
I think Coop and Gerrard made Dougie to hold a spot for him till he got there.
Dougie had the ring on. Gerrard would've had it to put on Dougie.
I have to go with Occam's razor on this. Bad Cooper had a reason to create Dougie (send him back in his place) while good Cooper doesn't seem to have one.
But who knows? Maybe that razor needs some sharpening.
Then
What reason did Mr C make Dougie?
And
Why was Mr C trying to have Dougie bumped off?
I think Coop and Gerrard made Dougie to hold a spot for him till he got there.
Dougie had the ring on. Gerrard would've had it to put on Dougie.
I think Mr. C made Dougie (and made sure he had the ring) so that Dougie would be the one pulled back to the lodge when the time came, which is what happened.
Mr. C timed the hits on Dougie to take place after Dale materialized. The plan was to kill Dale. According to Gerrard, one of them had to die and Mr. C wanted it to be Dale.
But like almost every interpretation of the Return this one probably has some holes in it!
ps. credit where credit is due, this interpretation pretty much comes from this site. There's a lot of interesting stuff on it.
I have to go with Occam's razor on this. Bad Cooper had a reason to create Dougie (send him back in his place) while good Cooper doesn't seem to have one.
But who knows? Maybe that razor needs some sharpening.
Then
What reason did Mr C make Dougie?
And
Why was Mr C trying to have Dougie bumped off?
I think Coop and Gerrard made Dougie to hold a spot for him till he got there.
Dougie had the ring on. Gerrard would've had it to put on Dougie.
I think Mr. C made Dougie (and made sure he had the ring) so that Dougie would be the one pulled back to the lodge when the time came, which is what happened.
Mr. C timed the hits on Dougie to take place after Dale materialized. The plan was to kill Dale. According to Gerrard, one of them had to die and Mr. C wanted it to be Dale.
But like almost every interpretation of the Return this one probably has some holes in it!
ps. credit where credit is due, this interpretation pretty much comes from this site. There's a lot of interesting stuff on it.
I don't think Mr C would have had access to the ring. Gerrard had it
Didn't Gerard have it only after Dougie dissolved in the red room? I don't remember him having it before that.
25 years earlier, Annie had the ring after coming out of the lodge. A nurse took it from her. Dale's doppelganger, the future Mr. C was roaming around the hospital around the same time. He could have taken possession of it then.
I think Mr. C made Dougie (and made sure he had the ring) so that Dougie would be the one pulled back to the lodge when the time came, which is what happened.
Mr. C timed the hits on Dougie to take place after Dale materialized. The plan was to kill Dale. According to Gerrard, one of them had to die and Mr. C wanted it to be Dale.
But like almost every interpretation of the Return this one probably has some holes in it!
ps. credit where credit is due, this interpretation pretty much comes from this site. There's a lot of interesting stuff on it.
The holes I see in this are:
1) The only reason that Dale does not leave at 2:53 is he is dissuaded by the static and turns around. When he eventually returns to the exit, he encounters the Doppel-Arm. This encounter results in a chain of events that culminates with the Dale/Dougie exchange.
2) Mr. C does not control the Doppel-Arm. This can be deduced from his conversation with Daria. In that conversation, he tells Daria he has a plan to avoid being pulled into the Black Lodge. But he also says (of the Doppel-Arm): "This is what I want." Therefore Mr. C's plan and the action of the Doppel-Arm are two separate things.
Unless Mr. C gained control of the Doppel-Arm at some point and sent it back in time to 2:53, he is not in control of the chain of events that leads to the Dougie/Dale exchange. It's certainly possible that Mr. C gains control of the Doppel-Arm at some point, but as far as I can tell, this is not depicted in the series.
I think it's much more likely that Mr. C learned of the Dougie tulpa and set up a contingency plan (assassins etc.) Also, I think it must be conceded that the Black Lodge can take anti-Dale action without Mr. C orchestrating said action. Dougie's gradual corruption by Tony (for example) could be Black Lodge action, not Mr. C action.
I'm really considering the possibility that Mr. C made Dougie, but I'm not yet convinced.
Hmm, I haven’t dug into all your thoughts, or, haven’t Dougied in, but I’ll tell you my super-simple take upon first watch. I thought that good Coop simply didn’t want Janey-E and Sonny Jim to be alone, so he wanted a Dougie to return to them. I figured that the tulpa-making process was known to all the lodge spirits, including MIKE (and Mr. C, who had been studying lodge powers). I also thought the Laura/Carrie orb in Part 8 resembled the golden tulpa seed and that it was all meant to suggest that there wasn’t a strict delineation between “real” people and tulpas. I mean, I know MIKE said “you were manufactured for a purpose,” but perhaps the “for a purpose” part is more unique than the “manufactured” aspect.
Who manufactured the first Dougie? I still think it was Mr. C, but my phone won’t open the article in question. Grr!
I thought that good Coop simply didn’t want Janey-E and Sonny Jim to be alone, so he wanted a Dougie to return to them. I figured that the tulpa-making process was known to all the lodge spirits, including MIKE (and Mr. C, who had been studying lodge powers).
I also thought the Laura/Carrie orb in Part 8 resembled the golden tulpa seed and that it was all meant to suggest that there wasn’t a strict delineation between “real” people and tulpas.
I swear to God I'm going to back away from this site, but I had to communicate my nod-and-finger-snap approval to this second point here. Brava.
As for the Mr. C origin of the Dougie Jones tulpa... I can see the logic in this argument. I'm grudgingly coming around to it. But this actually complicates matters: Mr C still doesn't control the Doppel-Arm, and the "Phillip Jeffries imposter" seems to be working against Mr. C's plan. That means there's at least 2 unaccounted-for forces at work: whoever dispatched the Doppel-Arm (if anybody) and whoever was imitating Jeffries. Does anyone have a good explanation for these details?
(My personal theory is that Phillip Jeffries split like Dale did, except more like a burst of confetti than a bifurcation. That's why he asks Dale to "Please be more specific" - he doesn't mean the date, he means which Phillip Jeffries do you want?)
I just remembered another reason I think Dale made the Dougie tulpa: he works in insurance. His existence is literally an insurance plan. The only non-LV person in insurance is the salesman who's seen for 2 minutes in E1. For reasons I can't get into right now, I think this salesman is a benevolent manifestation of the Arm. It's all contingency plans interacting and reacting. It's insurance all the way down!
Fire walk with