I am so happy about having a grasp on the 3rd season now that I can start posting topics that have been bugging me for some time. I feel like none of these topics will throw a wrench into the works but I am willing to entertain other peoples takes on the subjects to smooth out the edges so to speak.
1st thing of the top of my head, Cooper and his Doppleganger are the ONLY ones alive (and I use that term loosely for Dopplecoop) that know how to get in and out of the Red Room. Only these 2 people, who are really just 1 person split into 2 parts, have been in and back out of the Red Room and while in it they have had conversations with dead people or supernatural entities. So am I to surmise the Red Room is basically some sort of connective tissue between them and if so, were they both seeking for an entrance path (Cooper with the key and Dopplecoop with the coordinates) as a means to destroy the other part? I mean Dopplecoop knew that Cooper was still human and had assassins looking for him in our world as well but the coordinates he was seeking were to get back there it seems. He had knowledge that if he was killed with the owl ring on he would be stuck there but he seemed to be trying to get there "alive" for some reason.
It's not a big question but they did seem to want to get there first...
Jack
I didn't think Mr. C was trying to get to the Red Room alive. In fact, I thought he was trying to avoid going there, in relation to not wanting to go back in the Black Lodge like he was supposed to.
I took it that he was looking for Judy, which is still interesting along the lines you put forward: both Coopers are trying to find Judy. And note that when Cole tells us about this plan to find Judy, that's what he says. He doesn't indicate an intention to destroy Judy, or anything about what they want to do once they find Judy. So, were are left to speculate about that, with regard to both Coopers, really.
I didn't think Mr. C was trying to get to the Red Room alive. In fact, I thought he was trying to avoid going there, in relation to not wanting to go back in the Black Lodge like he was supposed to.
I took it that he was looking for Judy, which is still interesting along the lines you put forward: both Coopers are trying to find Judy. And note that when Cole tells us about this plan to find Judy, that's what he says. He doesn't indicate an intention to destroy Judy, or anything about what they want to do once they find Judy. So, were are left to speculate about that, with regard to both Coopers, really.
Well obviously he wasn't trying to find Jack Rabbits Palace as that ended up with him in a cage in the control of the Fireman. I agree that both Coopers are trying to find Judy (or the Red Room to get to Judy,) but the end result is to destroy the other Cooper. Each are on this quest to eliminate the other although, each are a part of each other. It is a great greek tragedy. But I could be way off.
Jack
Jack
Hm. I guess I still think that is where he was trying to go, but then from there he wanted to go to Judy (Palmer house), and was diverted by Fireman to the Sheriff's station instead. Or, there is the theory that he was looking for Naido, with the notion that Naido is actually Judy perhaps. I don't subscribe to that idea, really, but it is interesting to think about.
If he was trying to go to the Red Room, why would he need coordinates? Presumably he would remember where Glastonbury Grove is, etc.
I have thought since the beginning that the goal of finding Judy (wanting what is on the playing card) was distinct from the goal of getting rid of the other Cooper, but I guess they could be related. Of course, I also tend to think that Mr. C was not destroyed at the end, but reincorporated into Cooper, and this is why "Richard" in Part 18 comes across as a new flavor of Cooper.
For what it’s worth, I thought ever since the playing-card scene that Mr C was seeking Judy so that he could take and have her power for himself.
The pool of liquid at Jack Rabbit’s Palace looked different than the “burnt engine oil” at Glastonbury, so I think it really was an entrance to a different place—the Fireman’s white lodge I guess. But I think Mr C was seeking coordinates for an entrance to a dimension where he imagined Judy to be. I don’t think Mr C would ever have guessed that Judy is in the Palmer house (as we surmise); in the end, Mr C turns out to be kinda totally blind, a fool.
As for only Cooper going back and forth, i guess the show really turned out to be about him and the question of his mission. I’m fine w that.
I haven’t watched The Return in a few months, aside from parts of the first episode (and it’s hilarious remembering how menacing Mr C was at first!). But tomorrow/weekend, I’m going to watch all 18 hours at the Museum of Modern Art, along w Caemeron and some other forum members!
Right, I don't think he knew Judy was in the Palmer house, or he would have just gone there. But I do think that is why we see the house on the screen in that scene with the Fireman and Briggs' head. Then it is swiped to the Sheriff's station.
So, I am thinking he thought he could use this to locate Judy, and was taken by surprise when he was caged and sent elsewhere against his will.
So no matter what he had the wrong coordinates, one set killed his son and one set put him in the fireman's cage. No matter what neither of these is what he wanted so it pretty much only leaves 2 possibilities, The Red Room which gets you into the lodges and/or Judy.
I think, but I could be wrong...
Right, I don't think he knew Judy was in the Palmer house, or he would have just gone there. But I do think that is why we see the house on the screen in that scene with the Fireman and Briggs' head. Then it is swiped to the Sheriff's station.
So, I am thinking he thought he could use this to locate Judy, and was taken by surprise when he was caged and sent elsewhere against his will.
Still leaves us with why seek Judy? And was it C driving or was BOB taking over. With Leland there were moments of pure Leland, moments of pure BOB and but mostly off-his-rocker Leland with the grinning and dancing and trying to show Cooper his golf clubs. I don't know what to make of BOB inside Mr. C and who was compelling who.
Would BOB have some reason to find Judy? Would he not know her identity? Perhaps one or both realized that Judy had taken up residence inside someone, but that identity/location was the quest.
BOB got barfed out of Judy - what motive could he have to face her again? Is it like ascending to meet your maker? Was the NY glass box a trap for Cooper, or for Judy? Maybe C wants Judy to inhabit him also. Judy, Mr. C, and BOB together (and I will be with BOB again; some speculation that could be Sarah's voice) - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? A trifecta perhaps. Were they split apart unintentionally?
Would BOB have some reason to find Judy? Would he not know her identity? Perhaps one or both realized that Judy had taken up residence inside someone, but that identity/location was the quest.
If TFD is to be trusted, and if BOB is meant to be Ba'al, then he's seeking Judy for the ultimate union and to ignite the end times. That I took as heavily implied by Mr Frost in the book. As to why BOB didn't know Judy's identity, if its taken that Judy inhabits Sarah Palmer then it may be that Judy had to be hatched before her presence is known/felt. And it possibly takes a hell of a lot of garmanbozia to trigger the hatching. Hence, BOB's posession of Leiland and his subsequent actions. But then this would lead us back to questioning why BOB/Mr C didn't know later that Sarah is inhabited by Judy. Was BOB's posession of Leiland just an unfortunate coincidence?
Assuming that horrible thing was Judy - is Mother something bigger than Judy and BOB? The Mother of existence, including evil?
How to put this... I guess I tend to think that Bob doesn't so much have concrete desires as a general desire to increase the pain and sorrow in the world, for him to feed on. Thus, I don't ever let Leland off the hook - it was his desire to have sex with his daughter that Bob perhaps amplified, but didn't create. So, I think what Mr. C wants stems from Cooper, and Cole's bit about this plan to find Judy bolsters this thought for me. Both Coopers want to find Judy, and we aren't told why. We might want to think that the Good Coop wants to destroy her, while the Bad Coop wants to pull a Windom Earle or something, but I like the ambiguity - this fascination with an extreme negative force. I find an analogy to the invention of the Bomb. Mostly, the scientists just wanted to see if they could do it.
How to put this... I guess I tend to think that Bob doesn't so much have concrete desires as a general desire to increase the pain and sorrow in the world, for him to feed on. Thus, I don't ever let Leland off the hook - it was his desire to have sex with his daughter that Bob perhaps amplified, but didn't create. So, I think what Mr. C wants stems from Cooper, and Cole's bit about this plan to find Judy bolsters this thought for me. Both Coopers want to find Judy, and we aren't told why. We might want to think that the Good Coop wants to destroy her, while the Bad Coop wants to pull a Windom Earle or something, but I like the ambiguity - this fascination with an extreme negative force. I find an analogy to the invention of the Bomb. Mostly, the scientists just wanted to see if they could do it.
That works out...if you watch any of the several movies and documentaries on the Manhattan project, you find scientists who don't want to continue the project due to it's end result...buy if Judy didn't end up in Twin Peaks, she would have ended up in Blagoveshchensk or Lhasa...only we wouldn't be able to understand the ending...
Not that we understand it now..
I had to add that last part even though i am now comfortable in my Twin Peaks skin....
The details get sketchy in my mind. But of course they do. C has got the playing card which I interpret to be of Mother. But C seems to be unknowing of Judy. He asks, What does Judy want with me?, and memorably, Who is Judy? So is Judy not part of his 25 year plan, or does he just not know her by that name? Maybe only the FBI has traced Jow-Dei and has their own pet name. Jeffries uses it, but C isn't hip to it. (But he should know what Cooper knows, or knew, surely... no?)
C was trying to get transported to the Palmer house, evidenced by the Fireman swiping that image aside and re-directing to the sheriff station. I have to guess that the Palmer house isn't a place he could just drive to; he needs to be there in the correct timeline/dimension, thus the coordinates are important. I suppose he's trying to stop the Richard/Linda excursion by beating them to the location.
So is Mother and Judy the same thing? And why doesn't C know about Judy?
All this fighting, and for what? A little bit of Garmonbozia. And it's a beautiful day too.
The details get sketchy in my mind. But of course they do. C has got the playing card which I interpret to be of Mother. But C seems to be unknowing of Judy. He asks, What does Judy want with me?, and memorably, Who is Judy? So is Judy not part of his 25 year plan, or does he just not know her by that name? Maybe only the FBI has traced Jow-Dei and has their own pet name. Jeffries uses it, but C isn't hip to it. (But he should know what Cooper knows, or knew, surely... no?)
C was trying to get transported to the Palmer house, evidenced by the Fireman swiping that image aside and re-directing to the sheriff station. I have to guess that the Palmer house isn't a place he could just drive to; he needs to be there in the correct timeline/dimension, thus the coordinates are important. I suppose he's trying to stop the Richard/Linda excursion by beating them to the location.
So is Mother and Judy the same thing? And why doesn't C know about Judy?
All this fighting, and for what? A little bit of Garmonbozia. And it's a beautiful day too.
I guess that works out, I mean only if Mr C. understands that the time has been "broken" by Cooper in 1989. If we are to understand that Mr. C understands he is walking through a butterfly affected universe then obviously he wants to meed Judy in her time and Portal (the Palmer house.) Of course that bleeds into my theory that Judy and that portal are closed off to the universe of Twin Peaks when Carrie Page screams at the end. I am still under the impression that he could get to the Black Lodge and Judy through the Red Room, I mean that is where we are first introduced to him, right?
Just a side note ....
Cole says that He, Briggs and Coop were formulating a plan to find Judy.
He doesn't say to "kill" Judy.
He also says that Judy is an extreme negative force. Not a being.
Thoughts?
Fire walk with