Origin x Awakening  

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(@bmoscovitz)
Dweller

I've seen many people referring to the a-bomb/white lodge sequence in Part 8 as the exposition of the origins of the lodges, Bob, evil and such.

However, mankind and the western civilization had been doing bad things in other ways for a long, long time before 1945. It seems to me less like the origin of all evil, and more like the a-bomb's  power was such that it caused an interdimensional tear which allowed things that were always there - but maybe not visible to our eyes - to flourish. 

What are your thoughts?

Write it in your diary

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Posted : 26/06/2017 11:45 pm
(@mark_chamberlain_stevens)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Bela Moschkovich

It seems to me less like the origin of all evil, and more like the a-bomb's  power was such that it caused an interdimensional tear which allowed things that were always there - but maybe not visible to our eyes - to flourish. 

It could be: "Oh, look, the talking monkeys invented nukes-guess we better send a rep down to check it out".

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Posted : 26/06/2017 11:53 pm
(@lynn_watson)
Roadhouse Regular

How about the radioactivity being a cause of a specific mutation of an evil characteristic - leading to the formation of BOB?
So evil has always existed, but a mutagen like radioactivity could cause an individual anomaly - which would then persist.

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Posted : 27/06/2017 12:01 am
(@mark_chamberlain_stevens)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Lynn Watson

How about the radioactivity being a cause of a specific mutation of an evil characteristic - leading to the formation of BOB?
So evil has always existed, but a mutagen like radioactivity could cause an individual anomaly - which would then persist.

It certainly persisted last November...........

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Posted : 27/06/2017 12:17 am
(@ranmacmh)
Roadhouse Regular

Nobody else has brought it up but I'm wondering about what we think we're learning in this episode as far as the black lodge/white lodge timeline.  If this is a "genesis" of black/white lodge inhabitants, (or maybe just their introduction to earth?) how does that jive with the lodge myths in early American Indian mythology.  If they have an ability to move forward and backward in time, do they start with the bombing or do they still predate the bombing? 

I'm reading the Secret History right now and I love that in the notes from M. Lewis you get a description that sounds just like that 20 minute sequence of moving through the inside of the explosion. 

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Posted : 27/06/2017 2:04 am
(@shelly21)
Lodger

Well i read the Secret History a while ago but if i remember correctly Lewis finds the entrance to the owl cave, the ring etc. which proves the black lodge already existed back then. I also remember a part with a man called "Denver Bob" who went into the owl cave... i thought at the time he was the man who became BOB after entering the black lodge... but i can't remember it correctly so i guess i was wrong.

But should we forget everything we read in that book because it's not "canon"? That would be really annoying.

Or is it that the black lodge already existed but its evil spirits couldn't leave it and because of the atomic bomb in 1945 they finally could go out? For some reason I'm not really satisfied with this explanation...

I loved the fact that the black lodge had something to do with American indian mythology, the forest, the trees etc. This is a bit to sci-fi for me... Even though i thought this episode was beautiful the whole thing about "dimensions opening" (not sure how to put it, my english is not good enough), made me feel like i was watching Buffy. I love that show but when it comes to TP i preferred the idea i had that the lodges and its spirits were created from the earth and nature as some sort of a representation of good and evil rather than coming from another planet. But hey, that's just my point of view 🙂

Anyway, it's very confusing in my head ahah so i'm hope i'm making sense

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Posted : 27/06/2017 4:46 am
(@bmoscovitz)
Dweller

Angela, when I say "dimension", I don't mean another planet in any way. On the contrary, due to Lynch's involvement in transcendental meditation and his works being loaded with occult symbolism, I think speaking of a different dimension or plane goes perfectly with the notion of an ancestral knowledge. 

The idea would be that the lodges already existed, but the bomb was something so greatly menacing it tipped the scale to the "evil" side when it should've been more balanced. 

Someone has pointed out 2 me that in The Secret History Of TP a passage explain the Washington region was a point for plutonium extraction, which led to the first a-bomb (the one we saw tested). So, it turns out both in real life and in TP, the main area where they extracted the plutonium belonged to a Native American tribe - I forgot their name, but it is the one Hawk belongs to. It is said in the book that when they are forcibly moved for the plutonium extraction, the chiefs say there will be some sort of "karma" for that.

In that sense, the bomb and the consequent release of a load of evil entities could be that karma.

Another quote from the book, from Milford's last letter to Briggs, addresses the whole "other world" issue, saying it's not an outer world, it's something that resides right here, but out of sight.

"And don't believe anyone who tells you this all began in Roswell in '47. I'm convinced now that whatever I've glimpsed or encountered and spent my life tracking has been with us since humankind came down out of the trees. It is not something "out there" -- in the president's words. They may well have once been our "neighbors" from some distant star, but I believe they were here before us. I believe that were we able to look deeply at the whole of human history we would see that they have always been here. I believe they have observed, helped, haunted, tormented, and teased us since the beginning of time for reasons entirely their own. I believe that they are a multitude, and that their true nature is singular and energetic, not physical, evolved in some way light-years beyond our ability to understand, and as a consequence our limited, linear sense of time means nothing to them. A few of us were chosen, for some strange purpose, to learn more about them. Or perhaps for other reasons.

 

I believe their presence fills more than the skies or these woods; they lie at the root cause of every extranormal or paranormal experience our species has recorded: religious, spiritual, scientific, ghostly, inspiration, angelic and demonic. From the burning bush to Fatima and Lourdes, to "vampires" and sky people, monsters and abductions in the night and Roswell and Homestead and all those strange lights and crafts seen for millennia by so many of us in so many skies. I believe all these phenomena that our putted-up egos and busy any minds persist in trying to label, categorize, penetrate, and comphrehend, all spring from this same uncanny source. This is the mother of all "others", and were we ever able to set our eyes on its ultimate nature we would find it as foreign, incomprehensible and indifferent to us as ours would be to bacterial microbes swimming in a drop of water.

 

These final truths you must never forget: we are utterly incapable of knowing their true intent, and their true intent may not be to wish us well. It may be that they're here to guide or even aid our evolution; it's equally possibly we may matter no more to them than those random protozoa in our tap water do to us. In other words, by our meager moral defintions, there may be both "good" and "evil", and those precious distinctions of ours mean nothing to them. There may even be a "good" and "evil" side at play there, and we the human race, is the game"

Write it in your diary

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Posted : 27/06/2017 9:04 am
(@shelly21)
Lodger
Posted by: Bela Moschkovich

Angela, when I say "dimension", I don't mean another planet in any way. On the contrary, due to Lynch's involvement in transcendental meditation and his works being loaded with occult symbolism, I think speaking of a different dimension or plane goes perfectly with the notion of an ancestral knowledge. 

The idea would be that the lodges already existed, but the bomb was something so greatly menacing it tipped the scale to the "evil" side when it should've been more balanced. 

Someone has pointed out 2 me that in The Secret History Of TP a passage explain the Washington region was a point for plutonium extraction, which led to the first a-bomb (the one we saw tested). So, it turns out both in real life and in TP, the main area where they extracted the plutonium belonged to a Native American tribe - I forgot their name, but it is the one Hawk belongs to. It is said in the book that when they are forcibly moved for the plutonium extraction, the chiefs say there will be some sort of "karma" for that.

In that sense, the bomb and the consequent release of a load of evil entities could be that karma.

Another quote from the book, from Milford's last letter to Briggs, addresses the whole "other world" issue, saying it's not an outer world, it's something that resides right here, but out of sight.

"And don't believe anyone who tells you this all began in Roswell in '47. I'm convinced now that whatever I've glimpsed or encountered and spent my life tracking has been with us since humankind came down out of the trees. It is not something "out there" -- in the president's words. They may well have once been our "neighbors" from some distant star, but I believe they were here before us. I believe that were we able to look deeply at the whole of human history we would see that they have always been here. I believe they have observed, helped, haunted, tormented, and teased us since the beginning of time for reasons entirely their own. I believe that they are a multitude, and that their true nature is singular and energetic, not physical, evolved in some way light-years beyond our ability to understand, and as a consequence our limited, linear sense of time means nothing to them. A few of us were chosen, for some strange purpose, to learn more about them. Or perhaps for other reasons.

 

I believe their presence fills more than the skies or these woods; they lie at the root cause of every extranormal or paranormal experience our species has recorded: religious, spiritual, scientific, ghostly, inspiration, angelic and demonic. From the burning bush to Fatima and Lourdes, to "vampires" and sky people, monsters and abductions in the night and Roswell and Homestead and all those strange lights and crafts seen for millennia by so many of us in so many skies. I believe all these phenomena that our putted-up egos and busy any minds persist in trying to label, categorize, penetrate, and comphrehend, all spring from this same uncanny source. This is the mother of all "others", and were we ever able to set our eyes on its ultimate nature we would find it as foreign, incomprehensible and indifferent to us as ours would be to bacterial microbes swimming in a drop of water.

 

These final truths you must never forget: we are utterly incapable of knowing their true intent, and their true intent may not be to wish us well. It may be that they're here to guide or even aid our evolution; it's equally possibly we may matter no more to them than those random protozoa in our tap water do to us. In other words, by our meager moral defintions, there may be both "good" and "evil", and those precious distinctions of ours mean nothing to them. There may even be a "good" and "evil" side at play there, and we the human race, is the game"

Yes i guess i was a bit sceptical about some theories i read this morning saying that the black lodge was created with the nuclear bomb... but then i read another post that made much more sense to me, just like you explained 🙂

[S3E8] How the bomb is connected to Twin Peaks

Includes spoilers for The Secret History of Twin Peaks

A real-life fact is that the plutonium used in the construction of the nuclear bomb for the Trinity test (as seen in "Part 8") was manufactured at the Hanford Site, a nuclear facility in Washington state.

Within a year, the world’s first large-scale plutonium reactor was in service at Hanford, and by early 1945 shipments of enriched plutonium from the plant’s three reactors were being sent to Los Alamos every five days. This material would be used in the first atomic bomb testing.

The Secret History of Twin Peaks (which includes a two-page photo spread of the Hanford Site on pages 118-119) mentions that that the land on which the Hanford Site was built was seized from the Nez Perce tribe in 1942 and that they were forcibly relocated (which, again, is actually true).

An obvious connection to season 3 is that Hawk is a "full-blooded" Nez Perce and the way he discovered the missing pages of Laura Palmer's diary was through the Nez Perce logo in "Part 6".

But The Secret History mentions that when the Nez Perce were originally removed from their land in the 19th century, Chief Joseph warned one day there would "come a reckoning." Perhaps the bomb (or, more accurately, BOB and the Lodge coming through/from the bomb) was this prophecy coming true, and BOB/the Lodge's malevolent influence on the town was the "reckoning" mentioned by Chief Joseph?

It's also worth noting that the Archivist concludes Harold Dahl's 1947 UFO encounter (which kickstarted the popular "alien" phenomena and UFOlogy) wasn't a UFO at all. It was instead the US Air Force dumping nuclear waste from the Hanford Site into the nearby Columbia River and the local environment, which would have included the nearby Twin Peaks. The town of Twin Peaks again suffers (indirectly) from the Trinity test.

But the most interesting thing of all is exactly where Hanford is located. Its geographical co-ordinates are 435′01″N 119°23′16W. Cooper's doppelganger is looking for co-ordinates from Ray, and ??????? (The Giant) tells Cooper to "remember 430" — not four-hundred-and-thirty, but specifically "four-three-zero".

Also curious is the fact that the degree of longitude Hanford is on is "119", the number Drugged-Out Mother has shouted several times in two separate episodes.

EDIT: And, as u/CharlieAllnut points out, the Hanford Site photo is on page 119.

It could be that the "430" and "119" co-ordinates are bit of a stretch (even by Twin Peaks standards), but an interesting coincidence nevertheless.

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Posted : 27/06/2017 10:01 am
(@bmoscovitz)
Dweller

Yeah, I came across this post, too! Loved it! 

Write it in your diary

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Posted : 27/06/2017 11:57 am
(@ranmacmh)
Roadhouse Regular

You guys are so sharp, this is why I have to come to the forums because half the time I'm trying to read right before bed and I'm falling asleep during it.  Can't find clue when your eyes are closing.

I am completely with Angela on not wanting this to be cut and dry sci fi, my heart started to sink a little when so much of the book started to dwell on Roswell.  But having it start with the Nez Perce tribe and the owl cave gave me hope!

"Our limited, linear sense of time means nothing to them," is so important here.  I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet.  I'm pretty confident that the show will just give us enough dots to connect to keep it meaty but not even to finish the puzzle.  And because the book was written by Frost so recently I'm pretty sure it's got to be mostly canon.  Now with the "Light Laura" introduction in this episode (and the first or second episode where she takes off her face??) I'm wondering how important the Secret Diary is.  That was written a while ago, but it would still be fun if that had some insights.

 

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Posted : 27/06/2017 1:45 pm
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