How good is part 8?  

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(@chris_sampson)
RR Diner Patron

I've been mulling over Part 8 for the last 2 weeks and have something I want to get off my chest. 

I thought it was great when I first watched it - ambitious, innovative and unexpected.  Then everyone started saying this was world class cinema: 2001 and then some, Kubrik++, groundbreaking television. Some even said that this was Great Art - Rodin, get back in your box, Picasso, take a back seat.

And I started to have some doubts. 

Why does Lynch rely so much on metaphysical/supernatural characters (the "Fireman", the "woodsman", doppelgangers) in TP: the Return.  These characters, to quote Morrissey, say "nothing to me about my life".  I'm 50 years old now, I don't get scare by Bogeymen. This was not the way in Blue Velvet.  Why are so many characters arbitrarily killed off? We don't have time to care about the Radio receptionist and DJ; their deaths are meaningless.  Is this the point?  That modern life is remote, expendable, cold and unemotional?  This needs to be explored before I'll call Episode 8 Great Art.  Don't get me wrong - I liked the nuclear test sequence, and the black and white filming works for me - but I feel emotionally disengaged from what is happening to the people on screen.  It wasn't this way with Audrey and Coop in the first series.

"We're in the version layer..."

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Posted : 07/07/2017 11:59 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

The radio receptionist and DJ aren't part of "modern life", or at least, contemporary life, since it's in the 1950s.

As for why things are done in this way, it's been said - by no less than the star of the show, and many here - all will become clear in time.

To give my own life, beliefs and so forth as an example, I am an atheist, have no belief in spirits, ghosts, afterlife, or anything supposedly "Supernatural.  Ghosts, bogeymen, zombies, anything like that doesn't scare me because I don't believe they exist, but I enjoy Twin Peaks because it's a coherent vision of... something.  I'm prepared to suspend disbelief - and judgement - until I've seen the rest of it.

To use the art analogy, it's like taking a microscope to a painting and saying, "What the hell is this?  That's just a greenish blob!"  Then pulling further away to see Botticelli's "Birth of Venus".

As for the reliance on the characters you mention, well... that really is what Twin Peaks is all about.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 07/07/2017 12:20 pm
(@chris_sampson)
RR Diner Patron

Can I also say that some of the sources for what seems to be happening, Aleister Crowley and the like, and are bunch of Grade A nutters and should not be taken at all seriously.

"We're in the version layer..."

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Posted : 07/07/2017 12:34 pm
(@samxtherapy)
Detective
Posted by: Chris Sampson

Can I also say that some of the sources for what seems to be happening, Aleister Crowley and the like, and are bunch of Grade A nutters and should not be taken at all seriously.

Hehe, there are a number of people who'd disagree with you.  Bowie was seriously into Crowley for some of his life, most notably when he was shovelling Bolivian Marching Powder up his beak, but I think he shook all that out of his system years later.  Killing Joke and Led Zeppelin - or at least Jaz and Jimmy - are avid students of the occult, too.  Both of them seem to be reasonably sane people, by most standards anyhow.

I agree that Crowley was a weapons grade fruitbat, though.

That said, there are a lot of seriously weird things in the universe and, remembering Arthur C Clarke's statement "Any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic", so who knows?

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 07/07/2017 12:41 pm
Badalamenti Fan, groofay, elesea-honu and 1 people liked
(@dr_memory)
Lodger

Well, some critics have spent their entire careers debating Kubrick's perceived absence of humanity some outright accusing him of misanthropy.  Little wonder that an episode with such overt homage to Kubrick's cinema would leave some a little chilly.

Do I think that episode 8 lacks some human connection...yes I do.  But that doesn't deter me from admiring it as a exquisite piece of cinematic art, that transcends it origins and opens up the possibility of some revolutionary changes in the medium in which it was presented.

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Posted : 07/07/2017 12:44 pm
(@mark_chamberlain_stevens)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: SamXTherapy

The radio receptionist and DJ aren't part of "modern life", or at least, contemporary life, since it's in the 1950s.

America isn't feeling very contemporary right now....and badly needed a reminder that nukes are still dangerous...TPR is a gift.

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Posted : 07/07/2017 12:51 pm
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

Kubrick... Not as keen on him as some; I thought he was often being clever for the sake of it but I never thought of him as misanthropic.  2001, I believe is so much the opposite; it's almost hippy-drippy-happy-clappy.

As for Episode 8, I thought the human connection was very much in evidence; the message about how fragile we are, compared to the forces we can unleash, how much we are at the mercy of circumstance and - at least in this instance - the good will and intervention of ???????.  The parallels with the Virgin Birth, substituting Laura for Christ, are unmistakable, and I just bet the fundamentalists are going to go totally bugfuck when they get wind of it.

By the way, why has nobody mentioned the creation of Laura's globe is inside something that looks very, very close to the female reproductive system?

Re: Contemporary America...

The anti-intellectual stance of Trump, his cronies and followers will ensure any message about the dangers of nukes will whizz way over their heads.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 07/07/2017 1:24 pm
(@roberto_bella)
Roadhouse Regular

I found episode 8 to be deeply troubling, like a nightmare of extreme dark forces entering the world. As Lynch is among other things a master of suspense / horror, I would say 'mission accomplished.' Which is different than saying that I "liked" it. But I also could not look away. We are implicated in our gazing somewhat too.

It did remind me of Kubrick's "2001" - the attempt to leap from "ordinary life" to completely supernatural underpinnings.

You are certainly entitled not to believe me, but my family has all had experiences with what we perceive as spirits. I have long thought of Lynch's work as subconsciously allegorical. He often suggests the dabbling by supernatural forces of extreme light and extreme darkness, maneuvering behind the scenes, with humans sometimes employed like chess pieces.

Think of "Lost Highway." <SPOILERS>

Robert Blake's dark character appears supernatural. He is "invited in" by the jealousy of the sax player, leading to murder most foul. The sax player has a personality schism to try to protect himself from the truth of his own actions. But is ultimately drawn back into the horrible reality.

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Posted : 07/07/2017 1:36 pm
(@mark_chamberlain_stevens)
Roadhouse Regular
 

 I just bet the fundamentalists are going to go totally bugfuck when they get wind of it.

Insert audio: Mark laughing demonically....oh I hope so my friend, I hope so...they're so easy to wind-up....I just wish Frank Zappa was still here to do it properly.

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Posted : 07/07/2017 1:38 pm
groofay, elesea-honu, 1stDragonarse and 1 people liked
(@samxtherapy)
Detective
Posted by: Roberto Bella

I found episode 8 to be deeply troubling, like a nightmare of extreme dark forces entering the world. As Lynch is among other things a master of suspense / horror, I would say 'mission accomplished.' Which is different than saying that I "liked" it. But I also could not look away. We are implicated in our gazing somewhat too.

It did remind me of Kubrick's "2001" - the attempt to leap from "ordinary life" to completely supernatural underpinnings.

You are certainly entitled not to believe me, but my family has all had experiences with what we perceive as spirits. I have long thought of Lynch's work as subconsciously allegorical. He often suggests the dabbling by supernatural forces of extreme light and extreme darkness, maneuvering behind the scenes, with humans sometimes employed like chess pieces.

Think of "Lost Highway." <SPOILERS>

Robert Blake's dark character appears supernatural. He is "invited in" by the jealousy of the sax player, leading to murder most foul. The sax player has a personality schism to try to protect himself from the truth of his own actions. But is ultimately drawn back into the horrible reality.

I've had experiences that  people would probably say were supernatural but, being the pragmatic sort that I am, I put it down in the great big category called "Stuff We Have No Idea About".

I firmly believe that everything - absolutely everything - in this universe forms part of an ultimately explainable, understandable whole.  That's not to say it would ever be within our capacity to explain or understand, but that some being, somewhere would be able to get it.

Spirits and ghosts, though... nope.  Not the remnants of dead people, not that.  That's absolutely one thing I do not believe in, since I do not believe in the existence of a soul.  I can believe in some natural phenomenon that creates a being or simulation that is ghost like, or even some strange form of alien entity that has all the characteristics of a ghost.

Baryonic matter and the energy associated with it makes up only a tiny fraction of the universe.  Most of it is empty space; even down at subatomic level there's more nothing than something.  The rest of it is this strange stuff, Dark Matter and Dark Energy.  Who knows what's going on there, since it appears they don't interact with our version of stuff in any way.

Postscript to all that:

I am a damn good Tarot reader.  Always have been.  Not the faintest idea why, or what on earth attracted me to them in the first place but there you go.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 07/07/2017 2:14 pm
(@roberto_bella)
Roadhouse Regular

I understand your skepticism re: souls. That was me until I had personal "evidence." 20 years worth now, actually. I do think we have souls and we go on. But until/unless you have your own experiences, it is easy to be skeptical and there's nothing I could say that would change someone's mind.

The thing that fascinates me about the universe is its paradoxical nature. If there was/is a god who created the universe, how could such a timeless being exist? And if there isn't a god, then the universe is still a paradox b/c it emerged from nothing. So I consider the nature of reality inherently mystical / magical anyway. Because there's no reason for us to be here. And there's no reason for us not to be here. :->

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Posted : 07/07/2017 2:34 pm
(@droseth1)
Dweller

David Lynch has been practicing Trancendental Meditation (TM) for many years. As a practicer myself, I can assuredly say that it opens up the human mind in ways not fully understood. One of the ways is by experiencing the subjective. These are areas inside your mind or outside of your body near the Unified Field where things just get crazy and can't be objectively quantified. So yes I loved part eight because what he's doing makes sense to me. The lodges are in the subjective aether so anytime he's telling their story his art direction goes this way. When we are back in the objective world, the subjective seeps through as well. As far as spirits/entities go, quantum physics, and correct me if I'm wrong, postulates at least 9 other dimensions that we cannot experience. It is scientifically plausible that a nuclear explosion could open up those dimensions and that we are experiencing what looks like ghosts simply because in our dimension they may have to exist differently to get through.

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Posted : 07/07/2017 3:13 pm
(@johnavidduncan)
Town Visitor
Posted by: Chris Sampson

I've been mulling over Part 8 for the last 2 weeks and have something I want to get off my chest. 

I thought it was great when I first watched it - ambitious, innovative and unexpected.  Then everyone started saying this was world class cinema: 2001 and then some, Kubrik++, groundbreaking television. Some even said that this was Great Art - Rodin, get back in your box, Picasso, take a back seat.

And I started to have some doubts. 

Why does Lynch rely so much on metaphysical/supernatural characters (the "Fireman", the "woodsman", doppelgangers) in TP: the Return.  These characters, to quote Morrissey, say "nothing to me about my life".  I'm 50 years old now, I don't get scare by Bogeymen. This was not the way in Blue Velvet.  Why are so many characters arbitrarily killed off? We don't have time to care about the Radio receptionist and DJ; their deaths are meaningless.  Is this the point?  That modern life is remote, expendable, cold and unemotional?  This needs to be explored before I'll call Episode 8 Great Art.  Don't get me wrong - I liked the nuclear test sequence, and the black and white filming works for me - but I feel emotionally disengaged from what is happening to the people on screen.  It wasn't this way with Audrey and Coop in the first series.

 

I concur with you.

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Posted : 07/07/2017 3:32 pm
(@roberto_bella)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Dennis Roseth

David Lynch has been practicing Trancendental Meditation (TM) for many years. As a practicer myself, I can assuredly say that it opens up the human mind in ways not fully understood. One of the ways is by experiencing the subjective. These are areas inside your mind or outside of your body near the Unified Field where things just get crazy and can't be objectively quantified. So yes I loved part eight because what he's doing makes sense to me. The lodges are in the subjective aether so anytime he's telling their story his art direction goes this way. When we are back in the objective world, the subjective seeps through as well. As far as spirits/entities go, quantum physics, and correct me if I'm wrong, postulates at least 9 other dimensions that we cannot experience. It is scientifically plausible that a nuclear explosion could open up those dimensions and that we are experiencing what looks like ghosts simply because in our dimension they may have to exist differently to get through.

Yes, I knew Lynch was deep into TM and assumed he got a lot of his concepts from it. I've meditated before, but not specifically in this way.

Since all matter is vibrational, many people who believe in spirit also believe there are overlapping planes of existence which we can't fully perceive as humans. Our reality is one plane, and perhaps what one might think of as "heaven" is at a higher vibration, and overlaid on this one. Mediums are people who can raise their vibrations to communicate with "spirits" who lower their vibrations to meet them in between.

And as fascinating as I find it all to be, I would also like to caution those who have no experience with this stuff to be very cautious. The abyss stares back. Far better to keep your eyes and focus on the light, as it were.

Another concept of reality that is entirely possible is that we do in fact live in a simulated reality. It's been theorized that once a civilization has the technological capability to create virtual realities, they surely will. What makes us think we're the 'original reality?' We could just be running on "god the supercomputer."

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Posted : 07/07/2017 4:02 pm
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

The simulation problem has been tackled - successfully, in my opinion - by Iain M Banks.  The basic objection is something known as the "Morality Principle", or something along those lines.  If, for example, you could create a realistic simulation to the extent that the entities inhabiting it were self aware, why the dickens would you also create stuff such as suffering, injustice, disease?  Sure, you can't - or probably can't - code away every single unfortunate happening; there are always accidents and the law of averages will always win eventually, but...

Unless you are a malevolent creature who delights in seeing your creations suffer and die, through no fault of their own, you'd go out of your way to make things as safe and pleasant as possible.  Clearly, our own reality is very, very far from being a fair, just and safe place so it's safe to assume the reality we inhabit is as real as it gets.  The alternative - we are in a simulation created by a maniac - is too horrible to contemplate.

In either event, the outcome is the same, since we are unable to change the rules, recode the program or reboot the system.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 07/07/2017 4:52 pm
groofay, elesea-honu, Martin Dixon and 2 people liked
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