I don't buy the whole "there is no answer because it's art" thing. I think that's an excuse to not examine the meaning or the reality of the situation.
There's always an answer for everything...
Enjoyed your post, Myn0k. You express a point of view pretty much opposite of mine very well.
Here's an anecdote from my life:
In college, I attended a lecture by famous playwright Edward Albee, probably best known for "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" During the Q&A, a theatre professor from another university said he had recently directed a production of Albee's "Tiny Alice," a famous, bizarre and puzzling script which still confounds people. He said that as a director he had to make his own decisions about how to approach the material, and how to come to an agreement with his cast about how they were to understand the script. After explaining that, he then asked Albee if he could now tell him what he truly meant in "Tiny Alice." The playwright was lost in thought for awhile before replying, then finally said, "I can't remember." We all chuckled, Albee smiled and said nothing more.
I loved that and it's stuck with me. Plot has always been the least interesting element in film and stage to me and to clearly see a "message" in a script is something I especially dread. The more clear a writer's intentions are, the less interesting the work. And I can't stand it when a script comes close to being polemical, wanting to hammer home some point to an audience.
Along with everyone else, I can have fun puzzling over the unresolved mysterious bits and pieces of a thing, like we all do with The Return, but I would be let down if turned out that there actually was a bulleted list of What It All Means. I would find that very unsatisfying, making the series more disposable like the plot driven cop shows on TV which are momentarily diverting but instantly forgettable.
If Frost and/or Lynch unveil and confirm a lot of specific answers/meanings to elements of the script, you say your worry is whether or not what they say will make sense.--That indicates you would want their explanations to make sense to you - perhaps with the belief that one, final nailed-down Meaning really is somehow possible and for some reason critical. Their revelations would probably make sense to them, but very possibly not to you, maybe to no one else - And in that case, if you went back to the desire to have things explained to Your satisfaction, that wouldn't have any validity.
There actually isn't answer for everything.
Thank you very much for you long considered post.
I've just finished watching One More Time With Feeling for the second time - an excellent documentary filmed in art (almost Lynchian) style. I highly recommend it to anyone who fancies watching the creative process in action.
I digress a little but I have a point I guess, which is that actually I fully agree with your post and actually I think I sit on your side of the fence, as it were, on the art side.
Episode 18 has had a huge impact on me in that it seems to have irked out the overly logical side of me. I feel a little hurt in how the creators decided to finalise the series. A little betrayed maybe. Even though I loved episode 18 (it was amazing piece of film) emotionally it's taken its toll. No normal series or piece of television could do this in my opinion.
I've read through my previous posts and it's weird, because I wrote that almost like I was a different person. The overly logical side of me was coming out and wanting solutions, which I know there probably are none. I think it was Brandy who jokes about the five stages of grief. I think I'm going through a similar process. I want answers, even though it's clear there are none. Everyone's theories are great - buy they amount to nothing ( they're just ideas - as good as they are).
On the other hand I am very much looking forward to reading The Final Dossier and am hoping for some nods to extra information that enriches The Return.
Eh. A long drawn out post where I come across as a hypocrite. I know. But that's the effect The Return has had on me.
Bloody hell. What a ride.
Ps - watch One More Time With Feeling. It has some very Twin Peaks-like music
Thank you very much for you long considered post.
I've just finished watching One More Time With Feeling for the second time - an excellent documentary filmed in art (almost Lynchian) style. I highly recommend it to anyone who fancies watching the creative process in action.
I digress a little but I have a point I guess, which is that actually I fully agree with your post and actually I think I sit on your side of the fence, as it were, on the art side.
Episode 18 has had a huge impact on me in that it seems to have irked out the overly logical side of me. I feel a little hurt in how the creators decided to finalise the series. A little betrayed maybe. Even though I loved episode 18 (it was amazing piece of film) emotionally it's taken its toll. No normal series or piece of television could do this in my opinion.
I've read through my previous posts and it's weird, because I wrote that almost like I was a different person. The overly logical side of me was coming out and wanting solutions, which I know there probably are none. I think it was Brandy who jokes about the five stages of grief. I think I'm going through a similar process. I want answers, even though it's clear there are none. Everyone's theories are great - buy they amount to nothing ( they're just ideas - as good as they are).
On the other hand I am very much looking forward to reading The Final Dossier and am hoping for some nods to extra information that enriches The Return.
Eh. A long drawn out post where I come across as a hypocrite. I know. But that's the effect The Return has had on me.
Bloody hell. What a ride.
Ps - watch One More Time With Feeling. It has some very Twin Peaks-like music
Well said. I've been trying to say something similar for days now. I hate it, I love it, I want to cry, I want to rejoice, I want to punch Lynch, I want to cuddle with Lynch. I am a raging, festering hypocrite who is now showing signs of a Cluster B Personality Disorder.
My logical side is trying to kick the crap out of my emotional/intuitive side while the emotional/intuitive side is drowning my logical side in tears and blubber.
Nothing else in television, movies, books, music, etc has ever elicited a response even close to this. I was not actually joking about the 5 stages of grief. I was (am) quite serious. How can I be grieving over a TV show?!
Thank you very much for you long considered post.
I've just finished watching One More Time With Feeling for the second time - an excellent documentary filmed in art (almost Lynchian) style. I highly recommend it to anyone who fancies watching the creative process in action.
I digress a little but I have a point I guess, which is that actually I fully agree with your post and actually I think I sit on your side of the fence, as it were, on the art side.
Episode 18 has had a huge impact on me in that it seems to have irked out the overly logical side of me. I feel a little hurt in how the creators decided to finalise the series. A little betrayed maybe. Even though I loved episode 18 (it was amazing piece of film) emotionally it's taken its toll. No normal series or piece of television could do this in my opinion.
I've read through my previous posts and it's weird, because I wrote that almost like I was a different person. The overly logical side of me was coming out and wanting solutions, which I know there probably are none. I think it was Brandy who jokes about the five stages of grief. I think I'm going through a similar process. I want answers, even though it's clear there are none. Everyone's theories are great - buy they amount to nothing ( they're just ideas - as good as they are).
On the other hand I am very much looking forward to reading The Final Dossier and am hoping for some nods to extra information that enriches The Return.
Eh. A long drawn out post where I come across as a hypocrite. I know. But that's the effect The Return has had on me.
Bloody hell. What a ride.
Ps - watch One More Time With Feeling. It has some very Twin Peaks-like music
Well said. I've been trying to say something similar for days now. I hate it, I love it, I want to cry, I want to rejoice, I want to punch Lynch, I want to cuddle with Lynch. I am a raging, festering hypocrite who is now showing signs of a Cluster B Personality Disorder.
My logical side is trying to kick the crap out of my emotional/intuitive side while the emotional/intuitive side is drowning my logical side in tears and blubber.
Nothing else in television, movies, books, music, etc has ever elicited a response even close to this. I was not actually joking about the 5 stages of grief. I was (am) quite serious. How can I be grieving over a TV show?!
Perhaps we've picked up on an important element of Lynch and Frost's vision, which was to elicit an almost traumatic feeling in viewers.
If so, they were bloody successful. I'm not joking either.
Eh. A long drawn out post where I come across as a hypocrite. I know.
You don't sound like a hypocrite to me, my friend. Just thoughtful.
😉
- /< /\ /> -
Perhaps we've picked up on an important element of Lynch and Frost's vision, which was to elicit an almost traumatic feeling in viewers.
If so, they were bloody successful. I'm not joking either.
I think this is a very interesting idea. The question it prompts, for me, is a thorny one: If the "traumatize the audience hypothesis is correct (and we'll likely never know from the source)....
.... to what end? Why do that??
I'd posit that the experience might lead some among the relatively untraumatized to find new empathy for the trauma of others.
This seems a valuable thing, in an era in which some dismiss the trauma of others as self-indulgent (the epithet "snowflake") and others dismiss idealistic beliefs as the domain of victims who can't assert/defend themselves (the epithet "cuck"), while people on both sides of the polarized U.S. political environment recriminate about which side is where "the real snowflakes" (infinite regress/regression again: "Your sensitivity about my sensitivity shows me you are the less resilient, the actual 'snowflake,' etc.)
The Return strikes me as unforgiving of tired masculinist/macho archetypes re: self sufficiency, phallic power/authority, and "hipness."
Maybe foregrounding "trauma" (not just sensual/eroticized depictions of sexual violence) shows Lynch has evolved or matured since Blue Velvet ...
Thank you very much for you long considered post.
Thank You for another thought-provoking post, Mynok!
I've just went trough all (and I mean, ALL) the posts in this thread and I must say that this forum never ceases to amaze me. Some people here have invested a lot in the show (I know I did) both emotionally and intelectually. I really doubt that I will ever witness something like this again. Thank you for that. I'm grateful I was a part of this, even though I've doing it silently most of the time, since my english tongue has a real hard time trying to catch up with my portuguese brain. Cheers to you all, and keep it going! ?
Hi Damien,
But why would their intuition and instinct lead them to confuse nearly every single person who watched The Return?
Surely, they have enough superego to override their instinctual id if they wanted to, if only to make a more coherent story. Why didn't they?
😉
- /< /\ /> -
I know nothing, and am confused. I note, however, that this state of deep confusion and not understanding opens me in a way that certainty does not- knowing sh*t, and understanding it and being able to explain it is a big part of the basis of my ego.
I don!t know for sure that this was their plan, but this troubled state of confusion comes to me to teach me something.
I like that in my art.
Hi Damien,
But why would their intuition and instinct lead them to confuse nearly every single person who watched The Return?
Surely, they have enough superego to override their instinctual id if they wanted to, if only to make a more coherent story. Why didn't they?
😉
- /< /\ /> -
Yes, Lynch and Frost can do that, but then they wouldn’t be true to their art. Lynch has spoken repeatedly of how much he loves the world of TP, but he walked out of it when Showtime would not give him the means to fully realize that vision. Like a true artist, he will not compromise his work.
Part of the confusion is that most of us feel there is a proper way to interpret the ending and Twin Peaks itself. I believe there is no one right interpretation, because like all good art it is subjective.
Think of Led Zeppelin’s Stairway to Heaven, Bosch’s Garden of Earthly Delights or Hamlet. These are multilayered works of art that can be interpreted in different ways. Some say Hamlet hesitated to kill Claudius because of fear, or indecision, or because Claudius was praying. Others say Shakespeare made him hesitate, otherwise the play would be over.
We can say the same thing about Twin Peaks. Using logic, reasoning and symbolism, we can come up with a theory, but that is the most we can do.
Even if Lynch were to give us the “answer”, that won’t stop people from interpreting Twin Peaks in another way. It can be confusing, but its openness to various interpretations can clarify the mind, allowing us to view the events from another perspective. And this is what ultimately gives Twin Peaks life and why it endures.
I don't buy the whole "there is no answer because it's art" thing. I think that's an excuse to not examine the meaning or the reality of the situation.
There's always an answer for everything. We live in a causal universe, and even at the most macro level there's a cause, however you choose to interpret it. Even an artist produces something for a reason. They may not be able to know where it's heading, but there's a story as to how we got to the destination.
When Frost and Lynch were writing the story before or during the visual storyboard process, they would have had some guidance as to the mythology of where they're going. Some anchor.
I believe there is an answer. I don't think Frost would give up his story (his baby) and just say "yeah, let's ignore the past 25 years and just go all-out weird and piss everyone off - it's art, baby. Nobody has to understand it".
I personally think there are answers to most questions, outside of the whole "it's all a dream" argument.
It might not be obvious, but it'll be there.
However, only if Frost or Lynch confirm it, will it make sense. I'm hoping the Final Dossier hints at those answers for some closure.
Of course this is just my opinion, but I'm sticking with it.
All true but...
In this universe, there are some things we will never know. Heisenberg pretty much nailed that, I'm certain. 😉
There are things about the universe that we will never know in our lifetimes, but I do believe there is an answer to everything. At the quantum level, cause and effect isn't as clear cut, but I still think there is a a mechanism by which the universe works.
This is one of the reasons why I can accept paranormal phenomena as fact. It does not violate universal laws: our knowledge is just limited.
Thank you very much for you long considered post.
I've just finished watching One More Time With Feeling for the second time - an excellent documentary filmed in art (almost Lynchian) style. I highly recommend it to anyone who fancies watching the creative process in action.
I digress a little but I have a point I guess, which is that actually I fully agree with your post and actually I think I sit on your side of the fence, as it were, on the art side.
Episode 18 has had a huge impact on me in that it seems to have irked out the overly logical side of me. I feel a little hurt in how the creators decided to finalise the series. A little betrayed maybe. Even though I loved episode 18 (it was amazing piece of film) emotionally it's taken its toll. No normal series or piece of television could do this in my opinion.
I've read through my previous posts and it's weird, because I wrote that almost like I was a different person. The overly logical side of me was coming out and wanting solutions, which I know there probably are none. I think it was Brandy who jokes about the five stages of grief. I think I'm going through a similar process. I want answers, even though it's clear there are none. Everyone's theories are great - buy they amount to nothing ( they're just ideas - as good as they are).
On the other hand I am very much looking forward to reading The Final Dossier and am hoping for some nods to extra information that enriches The Return.
Eh. A long drawn out post where I come across as a hypocrite. I know. But that's the effect The Return has had on me.
Bloody hell. What a ride.
Ps - watch One More Time With Feeling. It has some very Twin Peaks-like music
Well said. I've been trying to say something similar for days now. I hate it, I love it, I want to cry, I want to rejoice, I want to punch Lynch, I want to cuddle with Lynch. I am a raging, festering hypocrite who is now showing signs of a Cluster B Personality Disorder.
My logical side is trying to kick the crap out of my emotional/intuitive side while the emotional/intuitive side is drowning my logical side in tears and blubber.
Nothing else in television, movies, books, music, etc has ever elicited a response even close to this. I was not actually joking about the 5 stages of grief. I was (am) quite serious. How can I be grieving over a TV show?!
Perhaps we've picked up on an important element of Lynch and Frost's vision, which was to elicit an almost traumatic feeling in viewers.
If so, they were bloody successful. I'm not joking either.
This is a thought that has been bouncing around in my brain all week. I expected a lot of vitriol and anger at the finale, but what I did not expect is the very real existential despair, grief and indeed trauma that some have experienced. This is above and beyond the empathy I felt for Sarah in the pilot or Laura in FWWM and elsewhere: some viewers have transcended empathizing and become Sarah Palmer (please don't remove your faces if we happen to meet in a bar).
I had forgotten just how powerul art can be and the impact that it can have on us and in our lives. A stark reminder that I apparently didn't know I needed, so thanks, all, for sharing your pain and grief. The journey that is TPTR and engagement in this forum have been impactful learning experiences for me.
This documentary has very much fulfilled and helped heal my Twin Peaks black hole.
Here's a clip from it. I cannot recommend it enough.
This documentary has very much fulfilled and helped heal my Twin Peaks black hole.
Here's a clip from it. I cannot recommend it enough.
Kool! I love Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds. Saw them in Chicago about twenty years ago. Great experience. Have one of his poetry books as well. Will definitely check out the doc. Thanks!
This is a thought that has been bouncing around in my brain all week. I expected a lot of vitriol and anger at the finale, but what I did not expect is the very real existential despair, grief and indeed trauma that some have experienced. This is above and beyond the empathy I felt for Sarah in the pilot or Laura in FWWM and elsewhere: some viewers have transcended empathizing and become Sarah Palmer (please don't remove your faces if we happen to meet in a bar).
I had forgotten just how powerul art can be and the impact that it can have on us and in our lives. A stark reminder that I apparently didn't know I needed, so thanks, all, for sharing your pain and grief. The journey that is TPTR and engagement in this forum have been impactful learning experiences for me.
Lynch can really worm his way into a viewer's emotional core, can't he?
BANG - right through the Amygdala!
- /< /\ /> -
Me, too. I don't think we'd be Lynch fans if we didn't, would we? 😉
- /< /\ /> -
Fire walk with