I would agree if every episode was artful and meant to be watched and not analysed, but...
This didn't seem to be the case to me. We're looking at human (and non human, granted) interaction and people with goals and desires.
At this point I can foresee the counter argument so I'm going to stop else we get caught in an infinite loop of "art needs no answer" Vs "good storywriting has no plot holes".
😀
You do know Reservoir Dogs and Alien are the same basic story? Put a bunch of people in a room and kill them one at a time.
So, how about Reservoir Alien? That would be something nifty.
I think it already got made.... iirc, wasn't it called Snakes on A Plane?
I'm not adapting Snakes on a Plane for the stage. I would either have to use fake snakes which would just make it really (creamed) corny. And if I used live snakes, I'm pretty sure I would get sued by both PETA and all the family of audience members who got bit.
I would agree if every episode was artful and meant to be watched and not analysed, but...
This didn't seem to be the case to me. We're looking at human (and non human, granted) interaction and people with goals and desires.
At this point I can foresee the counter argument so I'm going to stop else we get caught in an infinite loop of "art needs no answer" Vs "good storywriting has no plot holes".
😀
Your point is well taken, Mynok. TV and wide-release cinema are media audiences justifiably expect to find entertaining. For my part, I found The Return both entertaining and edifying in its thought-provoking and emotionally distressing impact-- I'm only just now coming back down after being seriously messed up by Sunday evening, and I have friends who literally wept because the turn Part 18 took was so bleak, the endless cycle of female victims so triggering...
I think it's becoming clear that The Return requires some intellectual apologism to be taken as a total success. That said, I don't think this is because it was poorly written or executed, nor ill conceived or unconsidered... Rather, I think what Lynch and Frost seemed to have aimed for (an enormous meta-commentary on fan culture, generational nostalgia, consumerism) is a tough pill to swallow and a rather anti-social position to stake out.... Lynch has a big heart when it comes to his collaborators, and little or no regard for fans more devoted to Twin Peaks than "art," as such.
This just makes Lynch seem like a dick.
I saw him speak at my friend's graduation some years ago. Seemed like a pretty alright guy. But then again, it's not like I spoke with him individually or anything.
This just makes Lynch seem like a dick.
I saw him speak at my friend's graduation some years ago. Seemed like a pretty alright guy. But then again, it's not like I spoke with him individually or anything.
Yup-- agreed. Strange as it is to say this here, I think he actually made something of a personal mistake by moving into TV ... I wonder if he'd see it this way.... He certainly conceded as much with respect to Dune ...
I'll state, and this is my opinion to be clear, that artists sometimes don't understand the gravity of their creation (anecdotally, this has happened to me on more than one occasion). S/he may have had an idea or concept in mind, but sometimes those intentions are not easily translated via visual communication/medium and further how it is received by others. That is to say, sometimes an artist will have a vision or idea that they're not fully aware of/completely understnd the implications/ramifications of. That's not a jab at the artist, more so a jab at criticits that do not understand this.
Lynch, for all his qualities, appears to be stuck in a time-loop. He seems to pine for earlier days that are gone (generally speaking). That doesn't detract from his intention, but may be off-putting to those that don't fully comprehend how "times have changed" (for better or for worse). Lynch isn't perfect in his delivery nor do I expect him to be. But, I do think he could learn from some of his contemporaries in that he could evolve a bit more with the "collective social conscience" of our time. I think he has and that is partially reflected in his work, but it's not obvious (nor is he), He is human, after all, and it's not necessarily a fault but more akin to the human condition in general: it's kind of like how many of us stop listening to music that challenges us in favor of the same old songs that comforted us in our teens, twenties and thirties, but then try and put a modern stamp on those favorites. It's compelling to some, but not necessarily compelling outside of the niche.
(I enjoy Lynch's work and absolutely loved TPTR, but he and it are not without faults.)
I would agree if every episode was artful and meant to be watched and not analysed, but...
This didn't seem to be the case to me. We're looking at human (and non human, granted) interaction and people with goals and desires.
At this point I can foresee the counter argument so I'm going to stop else we get caught in an infinite loop of "art needs no answer" Vs "good storywriting has no plot holes".
😀
Your point is well taken, Mynok. TV and wide-release cinema are media audiences justifiably expect to find entertaining. For my part, I found The Return both entertaining and edifying in its thought-provoking and emotionally distressing impact-- I'm only just now coming back down after being seriously messed up by Sunday evening, and I have friends who literally wept because the turn Part 18 took was so bleak, the endless cycle of female victims so triggering...
I think it's becoming clear that The Return requires some intellectual apologism to be taken as a total success. That said, I don't think this is because it was poorly written or executed, nor ill conceived or unconsidered... Rather, I think what Lynch and Frost seemed to have aimed for (an enormous meta-commentary on fan culture, generational nostalgia, consumerism) is a tough pill to swallow and a rather anti-social position to stake out.... Lynch has a big heart when it comes to his collaborators, and little or no regard for fans more devoted to Twin Peaks than "art," as such.
Just to be clear, I'm not one of the people saying that The Return was poorly written. I've had nothing but praise up to and including episode 17 (even if episode 27 had its faults). Episode 18 was a beautiful episode that will forever be engrained in my memory.
I just meant, going back to my original post, that I don't agree that Lynch and Frost have no answers to be uncovered. I think the "just accept it for art" is the easy answer that people are going for.
I've had the emotional impact and have just taken in the final episode like yourself. Now, I'm ready (wanting) to go in to uncover the clues or the hidden, un-obvious meanings, which I hope that The Final Dossier will provide clues or a key for solving.
Wow, Bad Fan, wow! 😉
It's obvious you have put a lot of thought into this question!
What do you think is future for artists like Lynch? Most of the creatives you list are either dead or fairly old - even Tarantino is 54 already. =:-O
Do you think the multinational, monopolistic media conglomerates will smother any little Lynches that might come along now? Or will they let a small fraction play on the Big Stage (like Showtime) just to be able to say that, yeah, we support Art with a capitol "A". See? We did Twin Peaks didn't we?!?
Very thoughtful post. Thanks. 😉
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Hi Andrew,
Did Lynch have a meaning in mind when he made The Return, do you think? Or was it all just vision? "I know! Now I'll add a character with a baby blue, Playtex Living Power Glove ...
Well, I would say writers don't write something with a "meaning" in mind. They have a narrative, everything is filtered through their own unique minds, but only writers of documentaries, educational pieces etc aim for a specific point or meaning.
Your TV's color settings are unusual, or maybe it's how you process seeing color?--but the glove was green. Your description of it as blue made me do a quick Google search to see if I could confirm my own impression of it being green - it was verified as green. But, green - blue - what's the difference really - what's the meeeeeaning? 😎
Hi Randy,
Blue? Did I say blue?!? And I've only watched every episode about three times, too! 😉
Must be all that Sparkle... gotta light(en) up on the intake of that stuff! 😉
- /< /\ /> -
I don't buy the whole "there is no answer because it's art" thing. I think that's an excuse to not examine the meaning or the reality of the situation.
There's always an answer for everything...
Enjoyed your post, Myn0k. You express a point of view pretty much opposite of mine very well.
Here's an anecdote from my life:
In college, I attended a lecture by famous playwright Edward Albee, probably best known for "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" During the Q&A, a theatre professor from another university said he had recently directed a production of Albee's "Tiny Alice," a famous, bizarre and puzzling script which still confounds people. He said that as a director he had to make his own decisions about how to approach the material, and how to come to an agreement with his cast about how they were to understand the script. After explaining that, he then asked Albee if he could now tell him what he truly meant in "Tiny Alice." The playwright was lost in thought for awhile before replying, then finally said, "I can't remember." We all chuckled, Albee smiled and said nothing more.
I loved that and it's stuck with me. Plot has always been the least interesting element in film and stage to me and to clearly see a "message" in a script is something I especially dread. The more clear a writer's intentions are, the less interesting the work. And I can't stand it when a script comes close to being polemical, wanting to hammer home some point to an audience.
Along with everyone else, I can have fun puzzling over the unresolved mysterious bits and pieces of a thing, like we all do with The Return, but I would be let down if turned out that there actually was a bulleted list of What It All Means. I would find that very unsatisfying, making the series more disposable like the plot driven cop shows on TV which are momentarily diverting but instantly forgettable.
If Frost and/or Lynch unveil and confirm a lot of specific answers/meanings to elements of the script, you say your worry is whether or not what they say will make sense.--That indicates you would want their explanations to make sense to you - perhaps with the belief that one, final nailed-down Meaning really is somehow possible and for some reason critical. Their revelations would probably make sense to them, but very possibly not to you, maybe to no one else - And in that case, if you went back to the desire to have things explained to Your satisfaction, that wouldn't have any validity.
There actually isn't answer for everything.
Hi Andrew,
Did Lynch have a meaning in mind when he made The Return, do you think? Or was it all just vision? "I know! Now I'll add a character with a baby blue, Playtex Living Power Glove ...
Well, I would say writers don't write something with a "meaning" in mind. They have a narrative, everything is filtered through their own unique minds, but only writers of documentaries, educational pieces etc aim for a specific point or meaning.
Your TV's color settings are unusual, or maybe it's how you process seeing color?--but the glove was green. Your description of it as blue made me do a quick Google search to see if I could confirm my own impression of it being green - it was verified as green. But, green - blue - what's the difference really - what's the meeeeeaning? 😎
Hi Randy,
Blue? Did I say blue?!? And I've only watched every episode about three times, too! 😉
Must be all that Sparkle... gotta light(en) up on the intake of that stuff! 😉
- /< /\ /> -
Blue, blue, electric blue
That's the colour of your poo...
Coat... getting...
- /< /\ /> -
Blue, blue, electric blue
That's the colour of your poo...
Coat... getting...
Sparkly electric blue poo.
Anywhere else I would say that is just weird. But in this forum..........not so much.
However, I do love Reservoir Dogs and have always wanted to find a way to adapt it to the stage. If this has already been done, I hold to "I thought of it first." Because I did. 🙂
Hi Brandy,
I swear, the first time I saw Reservoir Dogs, I thought that this was adapted from some stage play I had not heard of! =:-O
😉
- /< /\ /> -
However, I do love Reservoir Dogs and have always wanted to find a way to adapt it to the stage. If this has already been done, I hold to "I thought of it first." Because I did. 🙂
Hi Brandy,
I swear, the first time I saw Reservoir Dogs, I thought that this was adapted from some stage play I had not heard of! =:-O
😉
- /< /\ /> -
SO DID I! I asked a bunch of people who know a lot more about that stuff than I do. I also thought maybe it was an adaptation of some fairly common play, like how Taming of the Shrew is commonly redone or a dozen other Shakespeares or thousands of other classic stories..
...Must be all that Sparkle...
Ah! Well watch out with the Sparkle - or maybe it'll be interesting if all the colors start getting switched around for you!
Fire walk with