Hi everyone, new to this forum, after watching the last 2 episodes, I had to chat about it. This was the first forum that popped up for Twin Peaks, so I joined. Anyway, having been a fan of surrealism and Lynch for a while, I've consumed a lot of adjacent material (maybe a few degrees adjacent even), and I feel like there might be some connections. If not, I hope some of what initially struck me informs/stimulates other minds who may have more direct connections to make, but still fermenting.
First, it occurred to me that "Judy" or "Zhou De" (sp?) sounding like a name from China could not have been totally random. For one, in the first season of Twin Peaks, Cooper mentions Tibet several times, as well as some strand of Buddhism he either meditates on, or have studied.
Coincidentally, I work in technology and have a strong hobby in VR/simulations work. Previously, when I wanted to read up more on theories of formal simulations, I had found this page on Wikipedia, and I remembered it whilst watching last night's episode:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality (relevant sub-section on "Dreaming"), relevant passage quoted below. I don't claim Lynch has leveraged this ancient book or the ideas, but I think it makes for fascinating reading, and will search and read the source material.
A dream could be considered a type of simulation capable of fooling someone who is asleep. As a result, the "dream hypothesis" cannot be ruled out, although it has been argued that common senseand considerations ofsimplicityrule against it.[8]One of the first philosophers to question the distinction betweenrealityanddreamswasZhuangzi, aChinesephilosopher from the 4th century BC. He phrased the problem as the well-known "Butterfly Dream," which went as follows:
The philosophical underpinnings of this argument are also brought up byDescartes, who was one of the firstWesternphilosophers to do so. InMeditations on First Philosophy, he states "... there are no certain indications by which we may clearly distinguish wakefulness from sleep",[9]and goes on to conclude that "It is possible that I am dreaming right now and that all of my perceptions are false".[9]
As a related observation, there was a favorite movie of mine as a kid, called "The 13th Floor" ( https://www.amazon.com/Thirteenth-Floor-Armin-Mueller-Stahl/dp/B0062E3RZS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504544406&sr=8-1&keywords=the+13th+floor) dealing with the notion of simulation. It's different from something like Lynch, but the scene where Cooper and Diane are driving in the desert about to "penetrate" the edge of their reality seemed really close to a scene in that film. Has anyone seen it? Does anyone also draw the stylistic connection between the two scenes I'm mentioning?
Second observation. Many years ago, I watched a show called Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is an "anime", but very much deeper than what one would expect, dealing with the nature of reality, the soul, eschatology etc., very much on the esoteric vein of notions. The scene where Diane see's "herself" in the gas station vaguely reminded me of a scene where "Shinji" (a character in the anime) see's "Rei", who is actually not "Rei" but is a sort of "dual" of the character he knows. If memory serves, at some point also, the "real" Rei also see's her "dual" in this way (scene below). I admit, unless you have context of this series, you will not know what I'm really talking about and the connection will seem very arbitrary, but the way that the camera was positioned, having been a real big fan of Evangelion previously, it seemed like Lynch may have borrowed from it. Maybe not, either way, similar ideas.
Rei's dual scene
If someone could screen cap the scene where Diane is watching "herself" much would be appreciated. I also hope some people will corroborate some of my thoughts here and extend.
BTW - is there a general discussion board/group for fans here to theorize? discuss adjacent primary source material etc.? Thanks!
Hey I came over from the other thread on Quantum Lynch--
This is really rich, great ideas, elevated tree.
There are quite a few theory threads but they are scattered mostly among the episodes. I've found it's sometimes difficult to get people to read a really long post even if it's great--probably just a time management thing. I share your interests in theorizing about simulations and even how discussions about intelligent design rise out of them (for the record, I'm 100% evolution camp, and I don't think the two camps are necessarily pitted against each other and it has nothing to do with religion. More interested in what people have to say, how they build models, analogies, etc.) I would love to learn more about this area. I'll see if I can screencap that scene for you of Diane. Also I recommend the documentary about Lynch The Art Life available on Showtime to learn about his influences. There's a lot of fascinating stuff in it (including the fact that his first girlfriend was named Linda and his first art mentor as a teenager was named Bushnell).
Great take aways with a lot of depth! I think a lot there to look into! I am not ashamed to admit I don't know much about what you are referring to but think it is fascinating!
Thanks for the comments Paige and Cyndeewillow. I don't have the Showtime app, but will check this documentary out on Youtube or Google Play Store.
This is going to lead the conversation astray for a bit, but by coincidence, I was listening to the Feynman Lectures on physics today on audio. And there's an interesting comment about evolution Feynman makes as a brief aside while discussing whether certain symmetries are maintained/conserved starting in section 52-4 of the link below, and he makes the point that if you observe proteins, evidently L-anine , but there is a mirror molecule, the D-alanine, and in principle (that is there's no reason physical or chemical rule you'd break), you could create any organism with the mirror molecules, say a Frog (which he uses as an example). Feynman put's it best in the following:
Let us suppose, for example, that life is somehow at one moment in a certain condition in which all the proteins in some creatures have left-handed amino acids, and all the enzymes are lopsided—every substance in the living creature is lopsided—it is not symmetrical. So when the digestive enzymes try to change the chemicals in the food from one kind to another, one kind of chemical “fits” into the enzyme, but the other kind does not (like Cinderella and the slipper, except that it is a “left foot” that we are testing). So far as we know, in principle, we could build a frog, for example, in which every molecule is reversed, everything is like the “left-hand” mirror image of a real frog; we have a left-hand frog. This left-hand frog would go on all right for a while, but he would find nothing to eat, because if he swallows a fly, his enzymes are not built to digest it. The fly has the wrong “kind” of amino acids (unless we give him a left-hand fly). So as far as we know, the chemical and life processes would continue in the same manner if everything were reversed.
If life is entirely a physical and chemical phenomenon, then we can understand that the proteins are all made in the same corkscrew only from the idea that at the very beginning some living molecules, by accident, got started and a few won. Somewhere, once, one organic molecule was lopsided in a certain way, and from this particular thing the “right” happened to evolve in our particular geography; a particular historical accident was one-sided, and ever since then the lopsidedness has propagated itself. Once having arrived at the state that it is in now, of course, it will always continue—all the enzymes digest the right things, manufacture the right things: when the carbon dioxide and the water vapor, and so on, go in the plant leaves, the enzymes that make the sugars make them lopsided because the enzymes are lopsided. If any new kind of virus or living thing were to originate at a later time, it would survive only if it could “eat” the kind of living matter already present. Thus it, too, must be of the same kind.
There is no conservation of the number of right-handed molecules. Once started, we could keep increasing the number of right-handed molecules. So the presumption is, then, that the phenomena in the case of life do not show a lack of symmetry in physical laws, but do show, on the contrary, the universal nature and the commonness of ultimate origin of all creatures on earth, in the sense described above.
Which is a pretty neat argument for singular descent from one primordial organism that happened to digest with L-Anine (as oppsoed to D-Anine).
http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_52.html
I'll collect my thoughts more over the next few days, but I agree with the author on Quantum Lynch, David Lynch definitely has some kind of meta theory behind his works, and part of those "meta" ideas are informed by 20th century sciences, possibly Quantum Mechanics, possibly computing. As you mentioned, the characters in his stories behave less like characters sometimes, and more like computer agents.
More so in this season, than in previous 2 seasons, I also got a Lewis Carroll/Wonderland vibe. In the original Alice books, they are nothing like the recent Hollywood movie attempts, they are very surreal, and Carroll wrote it that way for two reasons 1. He wanted to convey the perspective of a little girl who is trying to understand the mechanisms of Victorian society, and how absurd it must look from someone who has not been acculturated to it, similarly, in Lynch's work, we see glimpses of the Lodges/"Others"/"Entities" "society" and it also look very absurd/bizarre/strange. 2. Lewis Carroll was a mathematician, and embedded a fair number of subtle notions from counting/sets/logic in his stories, perhaps again similarly to the way that Lynch is embedding subtle meta-notions/ideas from our modern day sciences.
Again, all this is pure conjecture, and this may be because I work in this field that I am biased to view things in this lens, but it seems to make sense to me.
You give me lots to think about but for now, one thing:
In the documentary, Lynch talks about his father who was a research scientist that worked for the US Dept. of Agriculture and in the movie he talks about how he was fascinated by the natural world, so yeah, he has interest in the underlying structure that puts together the natural world and it influences his art.
Great ideas here. After watching the ending a second time, I'm now less sure about the prime vs alternate reality theory. Cooper says "we are all in a dream", and much like Dorothy or Alice who have defeated the enemy, completed their quest, and are returning to their real lives, he bids farewell to his friends and says he would like to see them all again sometime. Then without a clear transition from the sheriff's station, he passes through the Great Northern steamroom door alone, fails to bring back Laura, and the morning after he passes through the portal with Diane, he eventually wakes up as Richard. Yet, if all of Twin Peaks up to episode 18 was an elaborate dream, why does "Carrie" seem emotionally struck by the name of Laura's mother, Sarah? Why does she scream at the end when she hears her voice, and why does Richard continue to think he's Cooper? Other elements from the prime reality, mainly black lodge phenomena, also bleed into the next one - mention of the Chalfonts/Tremonds residing in the Palmer House, the number 6 on the power line pole by Carrie's house, Diane's tulpa double. Despite all of the unresolved storylines, I'm starting to appreciate the ending. Cheers.
Really love your ideas...my interests lie in Lynch's esoteric influences. I work in the arts but also have great interest in mythology and meditation. Duality/non-duality/ doppelgängers/ dreaming or manifestation of realty/IRS archetypes featured in the lodge along with the classic archetypes of hero/maiden/vengeful mother etc feature heavily in Twin Peaks but I think it's so fascinating that people coming at it from various backgrounds can draw on their influences to garner different reading. big fan of the simulation hypotheses! I can see how Lynch's interest in eastern philosophies along with this idea can play into notions of living in a dream. Fascinated by the notion of meta realities in twin peaks. A conscious awareness almost of some characters of our shared reality as opposed to the reality of Twin Peaks. Great theories. Keep up the posting!
That would make the lodge entities the simulation overlords? Lol
I really like Neon Genesis Evangelion too, and it shares a lot of "feel" with Twin Peaks in many ways.
Bob is totally a boss fight in the sheriff's station. Freddie is kind of like the player who has been gearing and leveling up.
I should have your Diane shot soon, as I'm rewatching it now.
PS my avatar is my gnome warlock
Here's your screenshot of Diane squared at the motel. She's looking at herself from the car.
Great ideas here. After watching the ending a second time, I'm now less sure about the prime vs alternate reality theory. Cooper says "we are all in a dream", and much like Dorothy or Alice who have defeated the enemy, completed their quest, and are returning to their real lives, he bids farewell to his friends and says he would like to see them all again sometime. Then without a clear transition from the sheriff's station, he passes through the Great Northern steamroom door alone, fails to bring back Laura, and the morning after he passes through the portal with Diane, he eventually wakes up as Richard. Yet, if all of Twin Peaks up to episode 18 was an elaborate dream, why does "Carrie" seem emotionally struck by the name of Laura's mother, Sarah? Why does she scream at the end when she hears her voice, and why does Richard continue to think he's Cooper? Other elements from the prime reality, mainly black lodge phenomena, also bleed into the next one - mention of the Chalfonts/Tremonds residing in the Palmer House, the number 6 on the power line pole by Carrie's house, Diane's tulpa double. Despite all of the unresolved storylines, I'm starting to appreciate the ending. Cheers.
As far as Cooper waking up as Richard: I do not believe that ever happens. He remains Cooper. When he and Diane were about to make love, he said DIANE very distinctly, and she did not look startled or confused. She changed during the night; he didn't. He woke up in a different place, but he still had his FBI ID which he showed to Carrie. He didn't look in a mirror and see a strange face. So for all practical purposes, he's still Cooper in his mind and body. (We can't know if "Linda" was the Diane we know or not.) That timeline/dimension whathaveyou might "know" him as Richard, but that's a story we're not privy to.
For the purposes of this thread, his avatar hasn't changed, and it's not being played as a different character. But maybe there is someone new behind the controls.
Wow this thread has blown up!
Cyndeewillow: I've watched the documentary on David Lynch. Just a quick thought, it occurred to me that from David Lynch's own narrative of his "hero's journey" so to say, after he observed the disheveled naked woman walk down his street, a lot of his art seems to convey this notion of societal "rot" that was so different from his own personal experiences of a happy childhood with two loving parents, and almost David Halberstein 50s image he paints of his early years. BTW, if you don't get the references, I'm talking about this show and book, from the late great historian David Halberstein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ooU8B2MBF8 really good documentary series on the 1950s, might b ring some insight into where David Lynch was coming from when he describes his childhood
In a way, this sort of "something is rotten underneath" feeling David Lynch voices in the documentary reminds me a lot about film-noir type of philosophy/filming. And we do definitely see elements of film-noir in David Lynch's work I think.
Thank you again for recommending the documentary.
Wow this thread has blown up!
Cyndeewillow: I've watched the documentary on David Lynch. Just a quick thought, it occurred to me that from David Lynch's own narrative of his "hero's journey" so to say, after he observed the disheveled naked woman walk down his street, a lot of his art seems to convey this notion of societal "rot" that was so different from his own personal experiences of a happy childhood with two loving parents, and almost David Halberstein 50s image he paints of his early years. BTW, if you don't get the references, I'm talking about this show and book, from the late great historian David Halberstein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ooU8B2MBF8 really good documentary series on the 1950s, might b ring some insight into where David Lynch was coming from when he describes his childhood
In a way, this sort of "something is rotten underneath" feeling David Lynch voices in the documentary reminds me a lot about film-noir type of philosophy/filming. And we do definitely see elements of film-noir in David Lynch's work I think.
Thank you again for recommending the documentary.
Not only is something rotten underneath the surface of the clean and shiny suburban life, he LOVES the rot. He examines it with tenderness and shares it reverently with his father. Hey dad, I need to show you these dead animals and rotten fruit I've collected in the basement....
I think episode 18 had so much film noir influence in it. Wasn't Kyle a Hitchcockian protagonist all of a sudden? I've heard that Vertigo is one of Lynch's favorite films.
You're very welcome--it was a brief respite from the intensity of the series but a delight unto itself.
Really love your ideas...my interests lie in Lynch's esoteric influences. I work in the arts but also have great interest in mythology and meditation. Duality/non-duality/ doppelgängers/ dreaming or manifestation of realty/IRS archetypes featured in the lodge along with the classic archetypes of hero/maiden/vengeful mother etc feature heavily in Twin Peaks but I think it's so fascinating that people coming at it from various backgrounds can draw on their influences to garner different reading. big fan of the simulation hypotheses! I can see how Lynch's interest in eastern philosophies along with this idea can play into notions of living in a dream. Fascinated by the notion of meta realities in twin peaks. A conscious awareness almost of some characters of our shared reality as opposed to the reality of Twin Peaks. Great theories. Keep up the posting!
Thanks Joni Kelly ! There's a lot of rich new work in both philosophy, CS I think on the simulations hypothesis. A small group of "heterdox" academics in CS and economics have attempted to some simulation techniques called "agent based models" to simulate large crowd behavior and re-create other social phenomena (think Sim City). Here's a demonstration video of crowd/flock simulations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bot5_DouTWg
The "Simulations Hypothesis" posits (through different premises/justifications) that unlike a agent based model, where each "agent" has very simple rules/AI, a sufficiently advanced technological 'post-human' civilization (to borrow from Arthur C. Clark) would have been able to create very intricate simulations, that were indistinguishable from "reality".
I can't claim to know all the rigors of their arguments, but I've heard some folks claim the "cleaness" of something like Quantum Mechanics, where we can basically characterize exactly how certain particle systems should behave (limited only up to complicated interaction systems for certain particles I think), and that these "behaviors" are so precise, that they are almost "mathematical" in that they can be characterized by probability distributions (which is after-all not a "real" thing, but a abstraction), is "evidence" that our "reality" is a simulation.
Personally, not sure if I buy that, but it makes for very good meta for fiction. Of course, there are some modern films (see Dr. Strange from Marvel) that are trying to connect the "magic-mystic" with technology, if you noticed in that film, casting magic was almost like "programming a computer" in that film, and so who knows, perhaps the powers of the Lodges, and these abstract entities like the Firemen, Bob, Judy, etc. are really just "coding" at the sub-strata of "reality" !
Given Lynch's background and age, I'm sure he's not thinking in this way, but perhaps some of it is congruent with his meta? Not sure. Will have to read more from the forums here and think about what I saw in the series.
I will say, my personal "reading" of Twin Peaks definitely contextualizes the Lodge entities more in the Lovecraftian vein, that is they aren't "good" or "evil", even though Judy has been called the "mother of all evil" and Laura is "good". No, I view them as highly abstract entities who's motivation probably can't be totally understood by the human characters they influence. I think the 2002 film, "Mothman Prophecies" although shallow in story (i.e. it does not survive more than 1 "reading" of the film) and not at all like Lynch, get's the overall "feel" of how I view the Lodge dwellers.
Fire walk with