I still think people are taking the term "dream" to literally. . .
As Ive said before, no one is gonna wake up like Dorthy and see people they know that appeared as someone else.
The only remote stretch it can be, is Cooper/Dougie being still in a "coma". We can note, that after he wales up, is where things begin to get even crazier. including the glossed over things before the Sherif Station like somehow Briggs, Cole, and Coop discovered and made a plan 25yrs ago though nothing was remotely hinted to the three of them in the first series, a coma patient saying he's leaving and the MD being all but ok,two gangsters instantly believing Dougie was an FBI agent, Janie not putting up much of an argument when he says "Im out" (most of our GFs.Wives would of gone ballistic), Lucy who didnt understand being cell phones being a dead shot with a gun that Dirty Harry would of been proud of, and it could on and on
So while "dream" is an easy word, it is safe to say, if not certain, there is something else gone then "a mere categorizing of the days events of the subconscious, . . .
u r looking too much on the form and less on the content. The content is trauma, feeling hurt, etc. Whatever u wanna call it, however u want to imagine the state of the dreamer, it is not a person who is in that state by accident. It is a mind game of a very troubled/hurt person, its always been in all lynch films. And, quite frankly, it would be stupid if it wasn't about the psyche of a special/in trouble person.
Please: consider the entire season varieties of dreaming. Nothing is real. U picked the least realistic plot (dougie/janey-e's) which is 100% fabricated. its the most obvious Dream part of S3.
I still think people are taking the term "dream" to literally. . .
As Ive said before, no one is gonna wake up like Dorthy and see people they know that appeared as someone else.
The only remote stretch it can be, is Cooper/Dougie being still in a "coma". We can note, that after he wales up, is where things begin to get even crazier. including the glossed over things before the Sherif Station like somehow Briggs, Cole, and Coop discovered and made a plan 25yrs ago though nothing was remotely hinted to the three of them in the first series, a coma patient saying he's leaving and the MD being all but ok,two gangsters instantly believing Dougie was an FBI agent, Janie not putting up much of an argument when he says "Im out" (most of our GFs.Wives would of gone ballistic), Lucy who didnt understand being cell phones being a dead shot with a gun that Dirty Harry would of been proud of, and it could on and on
So while "dream" is an easy word, it is safe to say, if not certain, there is something else gone then "a mere categorizing of the days events of the subconscious, . . .
u r looking too much on the form and less on the content. The content is trauma, feeling hurt, etc. Whatever u wanna call it, however u want to imagine the state of the dreamer, it is not a person who is in that state by accident. It is a mind game of a very troubled/hurt person, its always been in all lynch films. And, quite frankly, it would be stupid if it wasn't about the psyche of a special/in trouble person.
Please: consider the entire season varieties of dreaming. Nothing is real. U picked the least realistic plot (dougie/janey-e's) which is 100% fabricated. its the most obvious Dream part of S3.
you misunderstand. I am saying that the only thing that resembles a potential "dream" is in the last three episodes, where there are drastic changes from the previous 15.
Twin Peaks is about Dugpas, and the other different species associated (Woodsman, Experiments etc., that feed from and create the "pain/suffering" (aka Garmonbozia), that you are referring to, with the White Lodge, waiting room and Black Lodge between them and the "real" world.
Hense, as I said earlier, a literal "dream theory" is, inaccurate and an excuse.
I still think people are taking the term "dream" to literally. . .
As Ive said before, no one is gonna wake up like Dorthy and see people they know that appeared as someone else.
The only remote stretch it can be, is Cooper/Dougie being still in a "coma". We can note, that after he wales up, is where things begin to get even crazier. including the glossed over things before the Sherif Station like somehow Briggs, Cole, and Coop discovered and made a plan 25yrs ago though nothing was remotely hinted to the three of them in the first series, a coma patient saying he's leaving and the MD being all but ok,two gangsters instantly believing Dougie was an FBI agent, Janie not putting up much of an argument when he says "Im out" (most of our GFs.Wives would of gone ballistic), Lucy who didnt understand being cell phones being a dead shot with a gun that Dirty Harry would of been proud of, and it could on and on
So while "dream" is an easy word, it is safe to say, if not certain, there is something else gone then "a mere categorizing of the days events of the subconscious, . . .
u r looking too much on the form and less on the content. The content is trauma, feeling hurt, etc. Whatever u wanna call it, however u want to imagine the state of the dreamer, it is not a person who is in that state by accident. It is a mind game of a very troubled/hurt person, its always been in all lynch films. And, quite frankly, it would be stupid if it wasn't about the psyche of a special/in trouble person.
Please: consider the entire season varieties of dreaming. Nothing is real. U picked the least realistic plot (dougie/janey-e's) which is 100% fabricated. its the most obvious Dream part of S3.
you misunderstand. I am saying that the only thing that resembles a potential "dream" is in the last three episodes, where there are drastic changes from the previous 15.
Twin Peaks is about Dugpas, and the other different species associated (Woodsman, Experiments etc., that feed from and create the "pain/suffering" (aka Garmonbozia), that you are referring to, with the White Lodge, waiting room and Black Lodge between them and the "real" world.
Hense, as I said earlier, a literal "dream theory" is, inaccurate and an excuse.
have u watched inland empire? it is the director's most recent film.
I still think people are taking the term "dream" to literally. . .
As Ive said before, no one is gonna wake up like Dorthy and see people they know that appeared as someone else.
The only remote stretch it can be, is Cooper/Dougie being still in a "coma". We can note, that after he wales up, is where things begin to get even crazier. including the glossed over things before the Sherif Station like somehow Briggs, Cole, and Coop discovered and made a plan 25yrs ago though nothing was remotely hinted to the three of them in the first series, a coma patient saying he's leaving and the MD being all but ok,two gangsters instantly believing Dougie was an FBI agent, Janie not putting up much of an argument when he says "Im out" (most of our GFs.Wives would of gone ballistic), Lucy who didnt understand being cell phones being a dead shot with a gun that Dirty Harry would of been proud of, and it could on and on
So while "dream" is an easy word, it is safe to say, if not certain, there is something else gone then "a mere categorizing of the days events of the subconscious, . . .
u r looking too much on the form and less on the content. The content is trauma, feeling hurt, etc. Whatever u wanna call it, however u want to imagine the state of the dreamer, it is not a person who is in that state by accident. It is a mind game of a very troubled/hurt person, its always been in all lynch films. And, quite frankly, it would be stupid if it wasn't about the psyche of a special/in trouble person.
Please: consider the entire season varieties of dreaming. Nothing is real. U picked the least realistic plot (dougie/janey-e's) which is 100% fabricated. its the most obvious Dream part of S3.
you misunderstand. I am saying that the only thing that resembles a potential "dream" is in the last three episodes, where there are drastic changes from the previous 15.
Twin Peaks is about Dugpas, and the other different species associated (Woodsman, Experiments etc., that feed from and create the "pain/suffering" (aka Garmonbozia), that you are referring to, with the White Lodge, waiting room and Black Lodge between them and the "real" world.
Hense, as I said earlier, a literal "dream theory" is, inaccurate and an excuse.
have u watched inland empire? it is the director's most recent film.
Of course, albeit not recently , I've seen them all and been watching and rewatching them for over 20 years.
Which is why I don't buy the "wake up after the tornado", or (as someone pointed out) the "St Elseware it was all a dream", or "Life on Mars" (BBC or US), dream fan fiction
As you said "nothing is real", I am pointing out, to who and where is real and not.
What people are calling a "dream" is "between two worlds", or "back and forth" between two worlds in events that are mainipulated by Dugpas,etc.
Which may or may not revolve around "the dream child"
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
The point is not to mislead anyone, he is trying to simulate dreams, these random elements are part of the usual dream mashup (yes, they are random u must accept this), as in all Lynch's films. The dreamer (like all of us), combines things from their memories and turns them into anything. The dreamer will attach random names, objects, environments in crazy ways. The dreamer could have heard a richard and linda song in the 60s and created the richard and linda references in their imagination (as horne/veteran girl). Anything could be anything. Judy could in fact be a diner's that the dreamer once passed by and while dreaming they might have built an entire mythology attached to the bomb.
If you watch inland empire and mulholland drive, u ll understand what I mean. The protagonists mix up real memories with imaginations or they create stories from random memories. For example: Naomi Watts on mulholland drive is creating in her dream a completely fake persona about her girlfirend, giving her the name of a random waitress (diane) in a diner she was the day before. Her subconscious picked the name literally during a 1 second interaction, and attached it to a saga story! There is a cowboy conspiracy story that runs for the entire film that turns out to be a random cowboy who Watts saw for a second (and is projecting to him whatever paranoia she has about hollywood). And so on.
Don't get attached to Judies, Richards, etc. too much. Most if not all of it has a root that can be totally random. The important thing - i insist - is to find who is the dreamer. Once we do, then all these little details will make perfect sense. And trust me: nothing is accidental (in the sense that it is there accidentally or to fill time). Everything connects perfectly, always, in Lynch's films.
Maybe "baits" is not the right word in English, because I was trying to say something very close to what you just said (although I think the loop itself is more important than "who is the dreamer".).
From a narrative standpoint, after The Fireman words at the very beginning, one is brought to think "oh that's the Richard and linda" when one sees Richard Horne and Linda the veteran. It turns out those two charachters (R Horne and Linda the veteran) were not very important, independently of the dream layer
i insist. u spent too much time on trying to figure out details that are not important. watch mulholland drive. u ll be trying to understand who is diane. And, plotwise, there is no Diane (the real person was totally random to the story)
Lol. I watched Mulholland drive 5 or 6 times. We might just have different perspectives on "random"
Diane was a random waitress. The mysterious key that opened a mysterious box was a fictional story she made up from her paranoia when camilla's killer told her "i ll leave this key - as a signal - when the job is done" (she told him "what does it open" and he laughed with her paranoia). Her beloved neighbor coco was a woman she saw maximum for an hour at the dinner party (the director's mother), the cowboy also, for a second. The espresso coffee particularities of the italian film mafia were random people drinking coffee after the same dinner party. The background paid killer story, again, an imagination of hers, the two men at the diner who again she saw randomly, for a split of a second. The director whose career is destroyed because he doesn't pick up the right girl (and she's never even met him, she meets him for the first time at the dinner party). And so on. These are all RANDOM THINGS, they are not significant in any way, they are not part of the plot (the plot being Watts is a looser actress who gets jealous and pays to have her girlfriend killed). They are manipulated tiny details of her every day life. Thats how dreams work, we all have mashups in our dreams.
But in his films, Lynch is trying to simulate the dream a paranoid, guilty, hurt person. (in mullholland drive everything she dreams before she commits suicide is a big MASHUP of small tiny things that mean nothing). BIG becomes SMALL or nonexistent (e.g. her lousy career), her mind represses it. And small becomes ENORMOUS and super-important (all the tiny random details).
This is how lost highway was, inland empire, muholland, and of course S3 of twin peaks. Someone (the dreamer) is lost in fake realities of his/her dreaming. Most things are totally random and have no particular significance. Tiny tiny tiny details his/her subconscious picked up and turned them into something else (dont u see how judy is in one dream a giant mother of evil and in another a crappy diner?) The difference of S3 from the other films is that the dreamer is not easy to figure out (in the films it was clearly the protagonist). And lynch makes it very clear that THIS is the difference: "who is the dreamer?"
Lynch himself has said it endless times on interviews how interesting he finds the game of the mind that protects a person from the cruel reality by creating illusions/dream worlds. This is who the dreamer is, a person under these conditions (dead or alive).
This discussion has all of a sudden ("randomly?") lost any interest for me
This discussion has all of a sudden ("randomly?") lost any interest for me
It lost interest for me when I got so confused that I disagreed with you even though we were in agreement (!!). Someone else was making it difficult to discuss your observations by constantly advertising his superior knowledge of David Lynch. By the way, your English is excellent, so you don't need to apologize for it.
Can I just interject to remind certain posters that this is not a Lynch film. It's written by Frost and Lynch. Therefore to make assumptions about everything that hasn't been specifically addressed in the film based on Lynch's back catalogue is jumping to conclusions and missing the point (in my opinion).
I think that a theory that fits for you is good enough. Some people act like THEIR theory is the right one. Even Kyle Maclachlan says in an interview that he doesn't exacly know what it means (it is about the journey that matters) You can discuss things and that can maybe that change someone's mind about it but i think it's not about who is wrong or right.
I think that a theory that fits for you is good enough. Some people act like THEIR theory is the right one. Even Kyle Maclachlan says in an interview that he doesn't exacly know what it means (it is about the journey that matters) You can discuss things and that can maybe that change someone's mind about it but i think it's not about who is wrong or right.
Exactly. I'd much rather go into the series with an open mind and see the various interpretations as possible solutions, then get stuck on a theory based in assumption.
Exactly. I'd much rather go into the series with an open mind and see the various interpretations as possible solutions, then get stuck on a theory based in assumption.
That's the best way ! I'm enjoying new interpretations, even if it doesn't fit for me but just to see how people are puzzling with the serie. That is great !
First of all, apologies for my English.
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but there might be a very strong link between ep8 and ep18 - namely, between the scene in the Motel and what follows (ep18) and 1956 "gotta light/bug/girl" scene.
1st hint is obviously the song - "My prayer" plays in both scenes.
2nd is geography: Odessa is close to New Mexico border. We see Cooper drive briefly and then entering the town of Odessa
I'm not fond of over-interpretation, however these two elements make the link between the two scenes very strong. What is the significance of this tie? Would this mean that the boy and girl are in fact Richard and Linda? I'm not sure, I don't even think it is so relevant to establish such a definitive equivalence. What I think is relevant, on the contrary, is that Carrie lives close to where it all started. What do you think?
BRAVO! FINALLY, SOMEONE MADE THE CONNECTION (HAVE BEEN SILENTLY WATCHING THE FORUM, ANTICIPATING THIS MOMENT). ODESSA IS ACTUALLY 430 MILES FROM LOS ALAMOS (THE TRINITY BOMB TEST SITE). COOPER'S FIRST CAR, THE MOTEL (INTERIOR/EXTERIOR), THE SONG, ARE ALL FROM THE SAME 50's 60's ERA/DECADE.
Now maybe someone will understand this thread?
The motel scene after the 430 drive is a "Working" to raise the "Mother of Abominations" and Diane's red hair ties her to Marjorie Cameron, Jack Parison's wife, in 1945. There are several time frames in episode 18 and so Cooper's final question is, well , just a sensible one.
The question will arise, why would a good guy like Cooper want to raise the Mother of all Evil? He wouldn't, but somehow stepping into this role (which was Jack Parson) with Diane (as Parson's wife) would allow him to reach Laura in her new state in Odessa, guided by "higher forces" (the Fireman? Jeffries? Mike? all of the above?)
I would tie this back to the Fireman moving people around with his screen, like he does Evil Coop. When they wake up the next day, they are moved into Linda/Richard, another version of themselves, in a different year. Cooper keeps his identity intact through all of these changes, remembering he is Cooper.
He is searching for Laura (and ultimately Judy). It's probably the Fireman leading him there. I think no mistakes are being made, it's just that Cooper doesn't completely understand what's happening--which makes me think that either the Final Dossier or future shows/movies will come out of this.
This episode is very heavily influenced by Frost and TPTSH.
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/some-weird-echoes-in-tptsh/
This discussion has all of a sudden ("randomly?") lost any interest for me
It lost interest for me when I got so confused that I disagreed with you even though we were in agreement (!!). Someone else was making it difficult to discuss your observations by constantly advertising his superior knowledge of David Lynch. By the way, your English is excellent, so you don't need to apologize for it.
Thanks David - yes we were in fact agreeing! I am now trying to understand where/when the dialogue between the Fireman and Coop happened. I've read an interesting piece on sync theory (posted on this forum yesterday I believe) which however does not convince me 100%
First of all, apologies for my English.
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but there might be a very strong link between ep8 and ep18 - namely, between the scene in the Motel and what follows (ep18) and 1956 "gotta light/bug/girl" scene.
1st hint is obviously the song - "My prayer" plays in both scenes.
2nd is geography: Odessa is close to New Mexico border. We see Cooper drive briefly and then entering the town of Odessa
I'm not fond of over-interpretation, however these two elements make the link between the two scenes very strong. What is the significance of this tie? Would this mean that the boy and girl are in fact Richard and Linda? I'm not sure, I don't even think it is so relevant to establish such a definitive equivalence. What I think is relevant, on the contrary, is that Carrie lives close to where it all started. What do you think?
BRAVO! FINALLY, SOMEONE MADE THE CONNECTION (HAVE BEEN SILENTLY WATCHING THE FORUM, ANTICIPATING THIS MOMENT). ODESSA IS ACTUALLY 430 MILES FROM LOS ALAMOS (THE TRINITY BOMB TEST SITE). COOPER'S FIRST CAR, THE MOTEL (INTERIOR/EXTERIOR), THE SONG, ARE ALL FROM THE SAME 50's 60's ERA/DECADE.
Now maybe someone will understand this thread?
The motel scene after the 430 drive is a "Working" to raise the "Mother of Abominations" and Diane's red hair ties her to Marjorie Cameron, Jack Parison's wife, in 1945. There are several time frames in episode 18 and so Cooper's final question is, well , just a sensible one.
The question will arise, why would a good guy like Cooper want to raise the Mother of all Evil? He wouldn't, but somehow stepping into this role (which was Jack Parson) with Diane (as Parson's wife) would allow him to reach Laura in her new state in Odessa, guided by "higher forces" (the Fireman? Jeffries? Mike? all of the above?)
I would tie this back to the Fireman moving people around with his screen, like he does Evil Coop. When they wake up the next day, they are moved into Linda/Richard, another version of themselves, in a different year. Cooper keeps his identity intact through all of these changes, remembering he is Cooper.
He is searching for Laura (and ultimately Judy). It's probably the Fireman leading him there. I think no mistakes are being made, it's just that Cooper doesn't completely understand what's happening--which makes me think that either the Final Dossier or future shows/movies will come out of this.
This episode is very heavily influenced by Frost and TPTSH.
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/some-weird-echoes-in-tptsh/
Very interesting. I have not read yet TPTSH - I will do
The motel scene after the 430 drive is a "Working" to raise the "Mother of Abominations" and Diane's red hair ties her to Marjorie Cameron, Jack Parison's wife, in 1945. There are several time frames in episode 18 and so Cooper's final question is, well , just a sensible one.
The question will arise, why would a good guy like Cooper want to raise the Mother of all Evil? He wouldn't, but somehow stepping into this role (which was Jack Parson) with Diane (as Parson's wife) would allow him to reach Laura in her new state in Odessa, guided by "higher forces" (the Fireman? Jeffries? Mike? all of the above?)
I would tie this back to the Fireman moving people around with his screen, like he does Evil Coop. When they wake up the next day, they are moved into Linda/Richard, another version of themselves, in a different year. Cooper keeps his identity intact through all of these changes, remembering he is Cooper.
He is searching for Laura (and ultimately Judy). It's probably the Fireman leading him there. I think no mistakes are being made, it's just that Cooper doesn't completely understand what's happening--which makes me think that either the Final Dossier or future shows/movies will come out of this.
This episode is very heavily influenced by Frost and TPTSH.
http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-part-17-part-18/some-weird-echoes-in-tptsh/
I wonder if Cooper and Diane were not trying to raise the mother of all evil but were instead trying to send it back where it came from / close off the portal that gave it access to this world.
I wonder if Cooper and Diane were not trying to raise the mother of all evil but were instead trying to send it back where it came from / close off the portal that gave it access to this world.
What strikes me about that scene is how hard Diane appears to be working and how uninvolved Cooper is, like he was when in bed with Janey-E, except he was obviously thrilled in that scene. Surely we are meant to think about this contrast, especially since Janey-E is supposed to be Diane's half-sister.
Fire walk with