Isn't it comedic that there are still people debating as to whether it was a dream or not when Cooper himself says that it was (and lynch has Cooper's daydreamer face on camera for 5 minutes) or the fact that ALL Lynch's films have a theme of dreaming (even the earliest ones as secondary theme)?
Whether what was a dream or not? Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, for example, involve elaborate fantasies (not the same as "dreams"), but the films as a whole do not merely depict dreams; they depict a reality polluted with the characters' fantasies. This whole vague "it's all a dream" thing is starting to bug me. If that's all there is to it, what's left to discuss?
I think in The Return there is much more Borges/Philip K. Dick than in any other Lynch movies. Like in Dick's Palmer Eldritch, there is a strong element of "dream" (of being part of someone else's imagination), but the greatness of the story lies in the loop that is generated between fiction and reality.
In this sense, I really like the way Lynch depicted the Moebius strip in ep17 (Jeffries/Coop/Mike). The little black dot goes to the other side through the strip, then gets back to "starting position': only then Coop can go in.
Isn't it comedic that there are still people debating as to whether it was a dream or not when Cooper himself says that it was (and lynch has Cooper's daydreamer face on camera for 5 minutes) or the fact that ALL Lynch's films have a theme of dreaming (even the earliest ones as secondary theme)?
Whether what was a dream or not? Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, for example, involve elaborate fantasies (not the same as "dreams"), but the films as a whole do not merely depict dreams; they depict a reality polluted with the characters' fantasies. This whole vague "it's all a dream" thing is starting to bug me. If that's all there is to it, what's left to discuss?
All the films u mention refer to dreaming (day dreaming, while sleeping or after death in purgatory). And, as said before the series keeps telling u about dreams so its not as if they are trying to wrap things up using the cliche, on the contrary, they are building an entire study of the human soul/mind on the premise of dreaming.
Since S3 started, considering Lynch had the freedom to direct the way he wanted, it was a certainty to me that the theme would be dreaming (I expected the plot to be like on E18 much earlier, in fact E17 was to me painfully childish - I believe the "one for the grandkids" heard by the Mitchum bro was also Lynch's line to whoever enjoys such plots).
The question is what type of dreaming it is and what are the issues Lynch wants to address using the theme. I don't agree with u that its vague. Inland empire is a brilliant satire of modern man and his illusions, the human psyche, one's connections and relationships with others, even a critique on the film industry/media and so on (I have no doubt that the green glove crap among other elements is also a joke on hollywood).
The premise of the dream is not bothering me at all, it opens up thousands of issues worth thinking about (very far from the plot, about life and society), in a way european directors used to do. Lynch was always using pop culture as the bait/excuse to go that way.
It's not a cheesy resolution Lost style.
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
The point is not to mislead anyone, he is trying to simulate dreams, these random elements are part of the usual dream mashup (yes, they are random u must accept this), as in all Lynch's films. The dreamer (like all of us), combines things from their memories and turns them into anything. The dreamer will attach random names, objects, environments in crazy ways. The dreamer could have heard a richard and linda song in the 60s and created the richard and linda references in their imagination (as horne/veteran girl). Anything could be anything. Judy could in fact be a diner's that the dreamer once passed by and while dreaming they might have built an entire mythology attached to the bomb.
If you watch inland empire and mulholland drive, u ll understand what I mean. The protagonists mix up real memories with imaginations or they create stories from random memories. For example: Naomi Watts on mulholland drive is creating in her dream a completely fake persona about her girlfirend, giving her the name of a random waitress (diane) in a diner she was the day before. Her subconscious picked the name literally during a 1 second interaction, and attached it to a saga story! There is a cowboy conspiracy story that runs for the entire film that turns out to be a random cowboy who Watts saw for a second (and is projecting to him whatever paranoia she has about hollywood). And so on.
Don't get attached to Judies, Richards, etc. too much. Most if not all of it has a root that can be totally random. The important thing - i insist - is to find who is the dreamer. Once we do, then all these little details will make perfect sense. And trust me: nothing is accidental (in the sense that it is there accidentally or to fill time). Everything connects perfectly, always, in Lynch's films.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
Always possible, Alfredo, but look how long Judy lasted as a mystery and possible canard, about which people still have many theories, and it was finally explained, at least partially, by Gordon Cole. Also, in a nearly 17-hour quasi-film, you have to consider how it begins and how it ends. The first few lines in the whole thing are "Listen to the sounds" (it's the sound Cooper hears when Laura disappears in Ep. 17), 430 (the miles), Richard and Linda—that all comes back in the final hour. This is not just some random stuff thrown into the middle.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
Always possible, Alfredo, but look how long Judy lasted as a mystery and possible canard, about which people still have many theories, and it was finally explained, at least partially, by Gordon Cole. Also, in a nearly 17-hour quasi-film, you have to consider how it begins and how it ends. The first few lines in the whole thing are "Listen to the sounds" (it's the sound Cooper hears when Laura disappears in Ep. 17), 430 (the miles), Richard and Linda—that all comes back in the final hour. This is not just some random stuff thrown into the middle.
I am not saying that these are random stuff, on the contrary. Because Richard and Linda were among the clues given at the very beginning, we were brought to expect that those two carachters named Richard (Horne) and Linda (the veteran) "were the ones". To me, the finale proves strongly enough that the clues were elsewhere. I agree that everything comes full circle
First of all, apologies for my English.
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but there might be a very strong link between ep8 and ep18 - namely, between the scene in the Motel and what follows (ep18) and 1956 "gotta light/bug/girl" scene.
Yep, I was thinking the same thing :
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
The point is not to mislead anyone, he is trying to simulate dreams, these random elements are part of the usual dream mashup (yes, they are random u must accept this), as in all Lynch's films. The dreamer (like all of us), combines things from their memories and turns them into anything. The dreamer will attach random names, objects, environments in crazy ways. The dreamer could have heard a richard and linda song in the 60s and created the richard and linda references in their imagination (as horne/veteran girl). Anything could be anything. Judy could in fact be a diner's that the dreamer once passed by and while dreaming they might have built an entire mythology attached to the bomb.
If you watch inland empire and mulholland drive, u ll understand what I mean. The protagonists mix up real memories with imaginations or they create stories from random memories. For example: Naomi Watts on mulholland drive is creating in her dream a completely fake persona about her girlfirend, giving her the name of a random waitress (diane) in a diner she was the day before. Her subconscious picked the name literally during a 1 second interaction, and attached it to a saga story! There is a cowboy conspiracy story that runs for the entire film that turns out to be a random cowboy who Watts saw for a second (and is projecting to him whatever paranoia she has about hollywood). And so on.
Don't get attached to Judies, Richards, etc. too much. Most if not all of it has a root that can be totally random. The important thing - i insist - is to find who is the dreamer. Once we do, then all these little details will make perfect sense. And trust me: nothing is accidental (in the sense that it is there accidentally or to fill time). Everything connects perfectly, always, in Lynch's films.
Maybe "baits" is not the right word in English, because I was trying to say something very close to what you just said (although I think the loop itself is more important than "who is the dreamer".).
From a narrative standpoint, after The Fireman words at the very beginning, one is brought to think "oh that's the Richard and linda" when one sees Richard Horne and Linda the veteran. It turns out those two charachters (R Horne and Linda the veteran) were not very important, independently of the dream layer
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
The point is not to mislead anyone, he is trying to simulate dreams, these random elements are part of the usual dream mashup (yes, they are random u must accept this), as in all Lynch's films. The dreamer (like all of us), combines things from their memories and turns them into anything. The dreamer will attach random names, objects, environments in crazy ways. The dreamer could have heard a richard and linda song in the 60s and created the richard and linda references in their imagination (as horne/veteran girl). Anything could be anything. Judy could in fact be a diner's that the dreamer once passed by and while dreaming they might have built an entire mythology attached to the bomb.
If you watch inland empire and mulholland drive, u ll understand what I mean. The protagonists mix up real memories with imaginations or they create stories from random memories. For example: Naomi Watts on mulholland drive is creating in her dream a completely fake persona about her girlfirend, giving her the name of a random waitress (diane) in a diner she was the day before. Her subconscious picked the name literally during a 1 second interaction, and attached it to a saga story! There is a cowboy conspiracy story that runs for the entire film that turns out to be a random cowboy who Watts saw for a second (and is projecting to him whatever paranoia she has about hollywood). And so on.
Don't get attached to Judies, Richards, etc. too much. Most if not all of it has a root that can be totally random. The important thing - i insist - is to find who is the dreamer. Once we do, then all these little details will make perfect sense. And trust me: nothing is accidental (in the sense that it is there accidentally or to fill time). Everything connects perfectly, always, in Lynch's films.
Maybe "baits" is not the right word in English, because I was trying to say something very close to what you just said (although I think the loop itself is more important than "who is the dreamer".).
From a narrative standpoint, after The Fireman words at the very beginning, one is brought to think "oh that's the Richard and linda" when one sees Richard Horne and Linda the veteran. It turns out those two charachters (R Horne and Linda the veteran) were not very important, independently of the dream layer
i insist. u spent too much time on trying to figure out details that are not important. watch mulholland drive. u ll be trying to understand who is diane. And, plotwise, there is no Diane (the real person was totally random to the story)
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
The point is not to mislead anyone, he is trying to simulate dreams, these random elements are part of the usual dream mashup (yes, they are random u must accept this), as in all Lynch's films. The dreamer (like all of us), combines things from their memories and turns them into anything. The dreamer will attach random names, objects, environments in crazy ways. The dreamer could have heard a richard and linda song in the 60s and created the richard and linda references in their imagination (as horne/veteran girl). Anything could be anything. Judy could in fact be a diner's that the dreamer once passed by and while dreaming they might have built an entire mythology attached to the bomb.
If you watch inland empire and mulholland drive, u ll understand what I mean. The protagonists mix up real memories with imaginations or they create stories from random memories. For example: Naomi Watts on mulholland drive is creating in her dream a completely fake persona about her girlfirend, giving her the name of a random waitress (diane) in a diner she was the day before. Her subconscious picked the name literally during a 1 second interaction, and attached it to a saga story! There is a cowboy conspiracy story that runs for the entire film that turns out to be a random cowboy who Watts saw for a second (and is projecting to him whatever paranoia she has about hollywood). And so on.
Don't get attached to Judies, Richards, etc. too much. Most if not all of it has a root that can be totally random. The important thing - i insist - is to find who is the dreamer. Once we do, then all these little details will make perfect sense. And trust me: nothing is accidental (in the sense that it is there accidentally or to fill time). Everything connects perfectly, always, in Lynch's films.
Maybe "baits" is not the right word in English, because I was trying to say something very close to what you just said (although I think the loop itself is more important than "who is the dreamer".).
From a narrative standpoint, after The Fireman words at the very beginning, one is brought to think "oh that's the Richard and linda" when one sees Richard Horne and Linda the veteran. It turns out those two charachters (R Horne and Linda the veteran) were not very important, independently of the dream layer
i insist. u spent too much time on trying to figure out details that are not important. watch mulholland drive. u ll be trying to understand who is diane. And, plotwise, there is no Diane (the real person was totally random to the story)
Lol. I watched Mulholland drive 5 or 6 times. We might just have different perspectives on "random"
But surely the girl and boy from 1956 would be older than Linda and Richard in the present and more Sarah Palmer's age and so wouldn't grow up to be them.
Especially because Richard is such a common name, I wouldn't assume that in the Fireman's reminder it refers to the (apparent) son of Bad Cooper, even though many people assume so. There could be a connection; I'm just saying, don't assume.
David I think Richard Horne (and the Linda we hear about from Carl Rodd) are just great baits from Lynch and Frost to mislead us
The point is not to mislead anyone, he is trying to simulate dreams, these random elements are part of the usual dream mashup (yes, they are random u must accept this), as in all Lynch's films. The dreamer (like all of us), combines things from their memories and turns them into anything. The dreamer will attach random names, objects, environments in crazy ways. The dreamer could have heard a richard and linda song in the 60s and created the richard and linda references in their imagination (as horne/veteran girl). Anything could be anything. Judy could in fact be a diner's that the dreamer once passed by and while dreaming they might have built an entire mythology attached to the bomb.
If you watch inland empire and mulholland drive, u ll understand what I mean. The protagonists mix up real memories with imaginations or they create stories from random memories. For example: Naomi Watts on mulholland drive is creating in her dream a completely fake persona about her girlfirend, giving her the name of a random waitress (diane) in a diner she was the day before. Her subconscious picked the name literally during a 1 second interaction, and attached it to a saga story! There is a cowboy conspiracy story that runs for the entire film that turns out to be a random cowboy who Watts saw for a second (and is projecting to him whatever paranoia she has about hollywood). And so on.
Don't get attached to Judies, Richards, etc. too much. Most if not all of it has a root that can be totally random. The important thing - i insist - is to find who is the dreamer. Once we do, then all these little details will make perfect sense. And trust me: nothing is accidental (in the sense that it is there accidentally or to fill time). Everything connects perfectly, always, in Lynch's films.
Maybe "baits" is not the right word in English, because I was trying to say something very close to what you just said (although I think the loop itself is more important than "who is the dreamer".).
From a narrative standpoint, after The Fireman words at the very beginning, one is brought to think "oh that's the Richard and linda" when one sees Richard Horne and Linda the veteran. It turns out those two charachters (R Horne and Linda the veteran) were not very important, independently of the dream layer
i insist. u spent too much time on trying to figure out details that are not important. watch mulholland drive. u ll be trying to understand who is diane. And, plotwise, there is no Diane (the real person was totally random to the story)
Lol. I watched Mulholland drive 5 or 6 times. We might just have different perspectives on "random"
Diane was a random waitress. The mysterious key that opened a mysterious box was a fictional story she made up from her paranoia when camilla's killer told her "i ll leave this key - as a signal - when the job is done" (she told him "what does it open" and he laughed with her paranoia). Her beloved neighbor coco was a woman she saw maximum for an hour at the dinner party (the director's mother), the cowboy also, for a second. The espresso coffee particularities of the italian film mafia were random people drinking coffee after the same dinner party. The background paid killer story, again, an imagination of hers, the two men at the diner who again she saw randomly, for a split of a second. The director whose career is destroyed because he doesn't pick up the right girl (and she's never even met him, she meets him for the first time at the dinner party). And so on. These are all RANDOM THINGS, they are not significant in any way, they are not part of the plot (the plot being Watts is a looser actress who gets jealous and pays to have her girlfriend killed). They are manipulated tiny details of her every day life. Thats how dreams work, we all have mashups in our dreams.
But in his films, Lynch is trying to simulate the dream a paranoid, guilty, hurt person. (in mullholland drive everything she dreams before she commits suicide is a big MASHUP of small tiny things that mean nothing). BIG becomes SMALL or nonexistent (e.g. her lousy career), her mind represses it. And small becomes ENORMOUS and super-important (all the tiny random details).
This is how lost highway was, inland empire, muholland, and of course S3 of twin peaks. Someone (the dreamer) is lost in fake realities of his/her dreaming. Most things are totally random and have no particular significance. Tiny tiny tiny details his/her subconscious picked up and turned them into something else (dont u see how judy is in one dream a giant mother of evil and in another a crappy diner?) The difference of S3 from the other films is that the dreamer is not easy to figure out (in the films it was clearly the protagonist). And lynch makes it very clear that THIS is the difference: "who is the dreamer?"
Lynch himself has said it endless times on interviews how interesting he finds the game of the mind that protects a person from the cruel reality by creating illusions/dream worlds. This is who the dreamer is, a person under these conditions (dead or alive).
BRAVO! FINALLY, SOMEONE MADE THE CONNECTION (HAVE BEEN SILENTLY WATCHING THE FORUM, ANTICIPATING THIS MOMENT). ODESSA IS ACTUALLY 430 MILES FROM LOS ALAMOS (THE TRINITY BOMB TEST SITE). COOPER'S FIRST CAR, THE MOTEL (INTERIOR/EXTERIOR), THE SONG, ARE ALL FROM THE SAME 50's 60's ERA/DECADE.
Sorry, but Trinity bomb test site is "close" to Alamogordo and not Los Alamos.
(Trinity coordinates : 33.677306, -106.475306 )
342 miles to Odessa.
tomAto, tomato dude. Los Alamos was were the bomb was made, the entire city was built with the purpose of making the bomb. Hanford was the place were the plutonium used for the bomb was created (another little town of workers), which happens to be near the fictional Twin Peaks. These 2 places are connected as far as the bomb story goes. They also built an enormous cable line between the 2 locations so they can communicate directly
I still think people are taking the term "dream" to literally. . .
As Ive said before, no one is gonna wake up like Dorthy and see people they know that appeared as someone else.
The only remote stretch it can be, is Cooper/Dougie being still in a "coma". We can note, that after he wales up, is where things begin to get even crazier. including the glossed over things before the Sherif Station like somehow Briggs, Cole, and Coop discovered and made a plan 25yrs ago though nothing was remotely hinted to the three of them in the first series, a coma patient saying he's leaving and the MD being all but ok,two gangsters instantly believing Dougie was an FBI agent, Janie not putting up much of an argument when he says "Im out" (most of our GFs.Wives would of gone ballistic), Lucy who didnt understand being cell phones being a dead shot with a gun that Dirty Harry would of been proud of, and it could on and on
So while "dream" is an easy word, it is safe to say, if not certain, there is something else gone then "a mere categorizing of the days events of the subconscious, . . .
tomAto, tomato dude. Los Alamos was were the bomb was made, the entire city was built with the purpose of making the bomb. Hanford was the place were the plutonium used for the bomb was created (another little town of workers), which happens to be near the fictional Twin Peaks. These 2 places are connected as far as the bomb story goes. They also built an enormous cable line between the 2 locations so they can communicate directly
as in the one Cooper was looking at mile 430?
Fire walk with