This reminds me of the movie Identity from 2003. Not sure I agree with the idea, but it is an interesting take.
This is the joy of art that's wrapped in mystery - we can all come to whatever conclusions we want. So long as no one's being pushy about it, the more theories the merrier.
I would say though, don't discount the books simply because they're not the TV show... Those books are canon. David asked Jennifer to write the Diary and not only approved it but used excerpts from it throughout the second season. Dale's book is by Scott Frost, who also wrote two episodes of the TV show. He would have a pretty clear vision of who Cooper is as a character and yet he chose to pack that book full of incriminating plot twists. You'd think that as the main character, Cooper would be too precious for David and Mark to approve something like that unless they felt comfortable with it.
Agreed. Although Tshotp, written by Mark Frost himself, has plenty of canon twisting inconsistencies, so I'm not entirely sure all of the books should be taken too literally, much the same way David Lynch swept aside much of the interpretation of season 2 in his own take / final say with his last episode of season 2. There is one 'creator' that I will always defer to and that is lynch.
This reminds me of the movie Identity from 2003. Not sure I agree with the idea, but it is an interesting take.
Yep, very similar.
By the way I do have my own hypothesis, not quite fully formed, that I have put together for a large amount of The Return, that doesn't mean I'm married to it.
Looking forward to it - all these different takes on the story is what makes it so intriguing.
Had another thought regarding the thought that this whole story revolves around a man named Richard. It occurred to me that the Double-R Diner could be referring to dichotomy of Richard's two personality extremes (good and evil). Therefore, it would be the "two sides of Richard" (RR). Taking it a step further, the words "Twin Peaks" may also be a play on the good vs. evil exhibited within Richard. He has an evil peak and a good peak. Also has had problems with sexual preoccupation, so could also be referring to breasts, all at the same time.
I think that the reason for Cooper to say "i hope i see you again,all of you" and "There will be some changes" is:
At this pont, coop is at the sheriffstation, but simultaniously (in episode 17) at the other side and saves Laura, wich means there soon will be no reason for him to know the people in twin peaks.
SO, because of that, the only two persons that knew him before TP, Diane and Cole, follows him from the sheriffstation and to the portal (the door at Great Northern), and he needs Diane there for some reason, and therefore he meets her at the curtaincall.
Well... Albert also knew him before Twin Peaks. Normally I wouldn't know enough to nitpick, but I rewatched some of the original show at the height of Twin Peaks finale fever, and Coop had definitely worked with Albert before the Laura Palmer case.
But I'm also intrigued to know why only Gordon and Diane went with him to the Great Northern. We've apparently just come from the Sheriff's Station - because Diane is still wearing Lucy's pajamas - so we haven't cut to something totally discontiguous. Yet we've obviously made some sharp break from the scene before. Why do three people pass from one to the other while the rest (even the other FBI agents) are left behind? No idea, but I feel like it's one of the questions worth asking.
I completely agree with you that the idea that Cooper was never really Cooper as we know and love him and is, instead, a serial rapist/murderer named Richard is extremely unsettling. And frankly, downright depressing. The entire time I have watched the series and FWWM over the years, it never occurred to me that Cooper, as we know him, may not be a real person. It wasn't until I delved into the Agent Cooper book that I began to see things differently. Then, Part 17 & 18 blew the proverbial doors off for me in formulating my final theory.
You made the comment:
"It would also require us to believe that everything we loved and had invested in about characters and events ins Seasons 1-3 weren't real."
Yes, I agree completely. For some people, myself included, the characters of Twin Peaks are so beloved and almost feel like family or old friends. The town had a mystical, amazing quality and brought out emotions in us that few things ever did before or ever will again. With that said, I believe David Lynch would have no problem taking that all away from us. Here is why: Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be a T.V. series, rather than a movie. We would have become invested in "Betty," "Rita," "Coco," etc. over who knows how many seasons?! And we would have accepted Betty's dream world as a successful actress in Hollywood and her amateur sleuthing to be reality. We know how that story ends, though - it all would have come crashing down on us after the big reveal that it was all a dream, Betty never existed, and our heroine is, in fact, a troubled young woman named Diane Selwyn who has had her lover murdered. This, in my mind, tells me my theory on Twin Peaks is very much something the creators would have been extremely capable of pulling over on us. I guess I can't speak as much about Frost, but Lynch for sure!
All that said, as others have stated on this thread and elsewhere, each and every one of us has the ability to regard Twin Peaks lore in whichever way we choose. We don't have to accept theories or ideas that do not fit our own creative vision of what truly occurred. While our own theories may not be what the creators had in mind, they are OURS and we can hold onto them as long as we wish. That is the true beauty of the type of art that Lynch creates.
I'm right with you here. I believe Lynch and Frost has told us as much time and time again in so many scenes and dialogue. To me, it's fairly obvious that Richard has created different personas in his mind to mirror his good side, his evil side, and his stupid side. (Dale, Evil Mr. Coop, and Dougie). Matter of fact, I'm toying with the idea that Richard was the actual murderer of Laura Palmer and his delusional mind is trying to bring her back to life and save her.
I completely agree with you that the idea that Cooper was never really Cooper as we know and love him and is, instead, a serial rapist/murderer named Richard is extremely unsettling. And frankly, downright depressing. The entire time I have watched the series and FWWM over the years, it never occurred to me that Cooper, as we know him, may not be a real person. It wasn't until I delved into the Agent Cooper book that I began to see things differently. Then, Part 17 & 18 blew the proverbial doors off for me in formulating my final theory.
You made the comment:
"It would also require us to believe that everything we loved and had invested in about characters and events ins Seasons 1-3 weren't real."
Yes, I agree completely. For some people, myself included, the characters of Twin Peaks are so beloved and almost feel like family or old friends. The town had a mystical, amazing quality and brought out emotions in us that few things ever did before or ever will again. With that said, I believe David Lynch would have no problem taking that all away from us. Here is why: Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be a T.V. series, rather than a movie. We would have become invested in "Betty," "Rita," "Coco," etc. over who knows how many seasons?! And we would have accepted Betty's dream world as a successful actress in Hollywood and her amateur sleuthing to be reality. We know how that story ends, though - it all would have come crashing down on us after the big reveal that it was all a dream, Betty never existed, and our heroine is, in fact, a troubled young woman named Diane Selwyn who has had her lover murdered. This, in my mind, tells me my theory on Twin Peaks is very much something the creators would have been extremely capable of pulling over on us. I guess I can't speak as much about Frost, but Lynch for sure!
All that said, as others have stated on this thread and elsewhere, each and every one of us has the ability to regard Twin Peaks lore in whichever way we choose. We don't have to accept theories or ideas that do not fit our own creative vision of what truly occurred. While our own theories may not be what the creators had in mind, they are OURS and we can hold onto them as long as we wish. That is the true beauty of the type of art that Lynch creates.
I'm right with you here. I believe Lynch and Frost has told us as much time and time again in so many scenes and dialogue. To me, it's fairly obvious that Richard has created different personas in his mind to mirror his good side, his evil side, and his stupid side. (Dale, Evil Mr. Coop, and Dougie). Matter of fact, I'm toying with the idea that Richard was the actual murderer of Laura Palmer and his delusional mind is trying to bring her back to life and save her.
Absolutely, Mike - if you read the very top of the thread (my first post) I said the same thing - he (Richard) killed Laura any probably many others.
Absolutely, Mike - if you read the very top of the thread (my first post) I said the same thing - he (Richard) killed Laura any probably many others.
Ahh yes, I had forgotten that you had posted that in the beginning. Seems like we are on the same page with lots of things. I think Richard's imagining of Laura Palmer's body disappearing from the river bank was his delusion that it never happened. And it seems that at the end, he is totally bewildered and confused that the house they went to was never lived in by the Palmers. Still trying to figure out exactly where he and Carrie went to as it certainly wasn't Twin Peaks as evidenced I think that we never saw the Twin Peaks sign on the road.
When I'm ready to watch this whole season again from the beginning, I'm now going to watch it with all this in mind... to try to catch as many clues, both obvious and subtle, that tell us the truth about Cooper.
Absolutely, Mike - if you read the very top of the thread (my first post) I said the same thing - he (Richard) killed Laura any probably many others.
Ahh yes, I had forgotten that you had posted that in the beginning. Seems like we are on the same page with lots of things. I think Richard's imagining of Laura Palmer's body disappearing from the river bank was his delusion that it never happened. And it seems that at the end, he is totally bewildered and confused that the house they went to was never lived in by the Palmers. Still trying to figure out exactly where he and Carrie went to as it certainly wasn't Twin Peaks as evidenced I think that we never saw the Twin Peaks sign on the road.
When I'm ready to watch this whole season again from the beginning, I'm now going to watch it with all this in mind... to try to catch as many clues, both obvious and subtle, that tell us the truth about Cooper.
I am going to do the same! And Mike, my theory is that the "Palmer" house is the house Richard (Cooper's true identity) grew up in. The woman he spoke to on the porch at the very end is either his wife or his mother (he is a Tremond/Chalfont). The person she spoke to off-screen may have actually been him (Richard). Since he is in his Cooper personality, he doesn't realize any of this.
I am going to do the same! And Mike, my theory is that the "Palmer" house is the house Richard (Cooper's true identity) grew up in. The woman he spoke to on the porch at the very end is either his wife or his mother (he is a Tremond/Chalfont). The person she spoke to off-screen may have actually been him (Richard). Since he is in his Cooper personality, he doesn't realize any of this.
Ok... I REALLY like the idea that this house is really the one that Richard grew up in. I've got to think about the person off-screen as being Richard as this counters my thinking that we start to see reality when Richard leaves the motel (and him going there with Diane as Cooper was maybe a distant memory of the real Diane leaving him). Are you thinking of the scenes that follow including the drive with Carrie as also being in Richard's delusion?
I am going to do the same! And Mike, my theory is that the "Palmer" house is the house Richard (Cooper's true identity) grew up in. The woman he spoke to on the porch at the very end is either his wife or his mother (he is a Tremond/Chalfont). The person she spoke to off-screen may have actually been him (Richard). Since he is in his Cooper personality, he doesn't realize any of this.
Ok... I REALLY like the idea that this house is really the one that Richard grew up in. I've got to think about the person off-screen as being Richard as this counters my thinking that we start to see reality when Richard leaves the motel (and him going there with Diane as Cooper was maybe a distant memory of the real Diane leaving him). Are you thinking of the scenes that follow including the drive with Carrie as also being in Richard's delusion?
Yes, I believe the entire thing is Richard's delusion and coming to terms with the fact that he has multiple personalities and is a murderer. When Laura whispers into his ear in Part 17 and his looks horrified (and his stunned expression is superimposed on the screen), she is telling him he murdered her. The final scene of Part 18 replays the whisper and he is left a broken man who is "trapped" with the reality of who he is...the end.
Yes, I believe the entire thing is Richard's delusion and coming to terms with the fact that he has multiple personalities and is a murderer. When Laura whispers into his ear in Part 17 and his looks horrified (and his stunned expression is superimposed on the screen), she is telling him he murdered her. The final scene of Part 18 replays the whisper and he is left a broken man who is "trapped" with the reality of who he is...the end.
Good stuff. Now I've got to re-think parts of where I was going with all this. Not sure if you have read a post I had in a different thread but I found that there was a famous murder in Odessa, Tx that drastically resembled what we saw about Laura's murder, (even including her parents worried when she didn't come down for breakfast and the body was wrapped up). I'm wondering if the house at the end was really in Odessa and that the drive with Carrie never really took place??? Might fit in with what you're saying.
Yes, I believe the entire thing is Richard's delusion and coming to terms with the fact that he has multiple personalities and is a murderer. When Laura whispers into his ear in Part 17 and his looks horrified (and his stunned expression is superimposed on the screen), she is telling him he murdered her. The final scene of Part 18 replays the whisper and he is left a broken man who is "trapped" with the reality of who he is...the end.
Good stuff. Now I've got to re-think parts of where I was going with all this. Not sure if you have read a post I had in a different thread but I found that there was a famous murder in Odessa, Tx that drastically resembled what we saw about Laura's murder, (even including her parents worried when she didn't come down for breakfast and the body was wrapped up). I'm wondering if the house at the end was really in Odessa and that the drive with Carrie never really took place??? Might fit in with what you're saying.
I do remember seeing that post regarding the Odessa, TX murder and there could definitely be some parallels here. Mark Frost has stated that the character of Laura was inspired by a real-life murder that occurred in Upstate NY in 1908, so it wouldn't be far-fetched to think that the Odessa setting with Carrie Page was inspired by the Odessa murder. My opinion is that the Carrie/Cooper drive never took place at all - it was either a delusion or a dream that Cooper/Richard was having. But I could be so, so wrong. And I wonder if we will ever really know!
I do remember seeing that post regarding the Odessa, TX murder and there could definitely be some parallels here. Mark Frost has stated that the character of Laura was inspired by a real-life murder that occurred in Upstate NY in 1908, so it wouldn't be far-fetched to think that the Odessa setting with Carrie Page was inspired by the Odessa murder. My opinion is that the Carrie/Cooper drive never took place at all - it was either a delusion or a dream that Cooper/Richard was having. But I could be so, so wrong. And I wonder if we will ever really know!
Yeah, I don't think we'll ever hear Lynch or Frost actually tell us all that is going on... unless the new Frost book dives into Richard's delusions and how he incorporated the characters that we got to know in S 1&2 into these delusions. I'm starting to come over to your side about the long drive being in Richard's/Cooper's head because I have a hard time believing reality was happening when he was in the restaurant putting the guns in the boiling cooking oil... and that scene inside Carrie's house with the dead guy seems more surreal than real.
Maybe that long drive home to place Carrie (who he thinks is a live Laura Palmer) is yet another attempt in his mind to save Laura from the murder he did on her. Maybe the Giant telling him "it's happening again" is also telling us (the viewer) that Richard is back to murdering young girls once again.
Fire walk with