I'm not sure why people aren't seeing this. It's almost obvious at this point, especially after a couple rewatches. They cut from the sherif station to a pitch black room. Coop's superimposed face still there and then Diane, Coop and cole all walk from Coop's superimposed face and towards the camera with blackness all around them. That's not a stylistic editing transition trick. We see no ther cuts like that at all in the series. At that point you might as well have Coop hold up,a sign that says "hey! I'm dreaming everybody!"
People don't want to accept it and I totally get that. But it doesn't make it any less good. In fact, I love it much more than a marvel-esque, cartoonish bob blob battle. I loved that scene but I'm pretty sure it's meant to be funny.
I'm not sure why people aren't seeing this. It's almost obvious at this point, especially after a couple rewatches. They cut from the sherif station to a pitch black room. Coop's superimposed face still there and then Diane, Coop and cole all walk from Coop's superimposed face and towards the camera with blackness all around them. That's not a stylistic editing transition trick. We see no ther cuts like that at all in the series. At that point you might as well have Coop hold up,a sign that says "hey! I'm dreaming everybody!"
People don't want to accept it and I totally get that. But it doesn't make it any less good. In fact, I love it much more than a marvel-esque, cartoonish bob blob battle. I loved that scene but I'm pretty sure it's meant to be funny.
I actually think a lot of people would LOVE for the ending to have been a dream. It would be the easiest possible way to escape what looks like a bleak conclusion (at least at first glance). Plus, that would open all sorts of doors for more episodes. If it was all a dream, they can take this almost anywhere without accounting for the events of the finale. Hallelujah!
So I think part of the reason people don't want to go there is it seems too good to be true. They don't want to tell themselves sweet little lies if they can help it. On the face of it, it also seems hackneyed: "It was just a dream." I'm sure if anyone could do something not-hackneyed with that, it's David Lynch - but at the same time, is there an older trick in the book?
What I would need is some way to justify how and why this is a dream, even if it's vague. (No, I don't expect Lynch to spoon-feed me the answers.) First, the all-important question: "Who is the dreamer?" You say it's Coop, which makes sense what with the giant overlay of his face. But why is this suddenly his dream? Does this mean the Coop in the Sheriff's Station isn't "real?" He seemed real five seconds ago. Where is the Coop who's having the dream, and what's his state? Asleep? In the Lodge? Why?
I'm not asking for ALL the answers. But there'd have to be something to grasp onto, if only by your fingertips, or it's just too easy.
I also feel like too many people who don't like the "dream" aspect are only looking at the word from a yrev western perspective. Cooper isn't necessarily saying, "Hey, I'm actually from a real universe and all of you are fake because I'm asleep and you're the product of my brain sorting out events." In some mythologies, dream worlds ARE real universes; thoughts create realities. Twin Peaks speaks to these sorts of philosophies, I believe.
Echoing James' point above - and allowing for my dyed-in-the-wool-evangelical-atheism - who is to say we aren't all in a dream of some Supreme Being? The idea would be a neat wrap up of just about all attempts to explain every single creation myth ever, erm, created.
Supreme beings aside, my own dreams are remarkably self consistent. Often disturbing but with an internal continuity.
Exactly! I was watching a documentary about dreams and there's a part where they say that our brains do not know the difference between dreams and reality when we are dreaming. In a way, dreams are real because we can sense things in them even if it is really just a "simulation."
I hope people at least start realizing that the battle scene in franks office is a dream even if they don't accept the season is. I refuse to believe that Twin Peaks, the show I've absolutely love would end the bob story arc in such a cartoonish ridiculous. I've said this before: I really love that fight scene but it's meant to be hilarious. It was fan service, not real and it was purposely over the top. From this perspective, it's a very interesting psycho-analytical examination of a man facing (battling with) his own subconscious.
I hope people at least start realizing that the battle scene in franks office is a dream even if they don't accept the season is. I refuse to believe that Twin Peaks, the show I've absolutely love would end the bob story arc in such a cartoonish ridiculous. I've said this before: I really love that fight scene but it's meant to be hilarious. It was fan service, not real and it was purposely over the top. From this perspective, it's a very interesting psycho-analytical examination of a man facing (battling with) his own subconscious.
The show you love had Nadine empowered with superhuman strength and shagging a potentially underage high schooler while married to Ed. Cartoon ridiculousness at its best/worst. The show's own parameters do not require viewers to interpret the fight scene as a dream. It's a possibility, but only your interpretation.
I hope people at least start realizing that the battle scene in franks office is a dream even if they don't accept the season is. I refuse to believe that Twin Peaks, the show I've absolutely love would end the bob story arc in such a cartoonish ridiculous. I've said this before: I really love that fight scene but it's meant to be hilarious. It was fan service, not real and it was purposely over the top. From this perspective, it's a very interesting psycho-analytical examination of a man facing (battling with) his own subconscious.
The show you love had Nadine empowered with superhuman strength and shagging a potentially underage high schooler while married to Ed. Cartoon ridiculousness at its best/worst. The show's own parameters do not require viewers to interpret the fight scene as a dream. It's a possibility, but only your interpretation.
Let's also not forget woman turning into a door knob, a lady who converses with a log, and a fish in the perculator (amongst other things)
I premise this by saying that this my interpretation and I am not trying on "convince" anyone to believe the same thing. Choose what works best for you. I am simply defending my interpretation ?
I thought of that too and was one of the things that initially made me resist this theory. But The Nadine story arc was when Lynch lost control of the show. It was not Lynch's creation. So that's not " the show I love." It's a bunch of writers screwing with Lynch's vision. He didn't want the Annie part in there either. He has confirmed this in interviews. I know this is my interpretation and other people have their own. And I think that's what's great about this show. Also, I think it is possible that in the TP universe, all of human experience is a dream. "We all live in a dream." The military and the FBI seems close to figuring this out and they are getting clues, but they're not quite there. A few years back, I attended a small intimate screening of inland empire and lynch spoke and gave Q and A. He said something along the lines as "sometimes I think our whole existence/experience is a dream. And one day we will wake up and realize that our existence and what we have been experiencing was a mirage." This mirrors the philosophy (I forget the philosopher's name but he's mentioned in one of these threads) that describes: what if my life is a dream and I am really just a butterfly. Think about how brilliant of a story that would be: In twin peaks, there is some weird mystical portal that traps you in your own subconscious while producing the realization that human experience is really a type of dream that we all live in. A simulation, kind of like the matrix. Maybe in the TP universe dreams are our actual existence/reality, a hodgepodge of archetypal elements that serve as allegorical clues as to what the meaning is behind our existence/awareness/consciousness. The FBI/military might never figure out what's truly going on because to do that, they would have to accept that their lives are a mirage of sorts.
Also, nadines superhuman strength isn't nearly as fantasy-like as Freddie's' mystical gardening glove. Not even in the same ballpark. There are even threads now of people saying "what was the whole point of Freddy." Indeed. Why do we need a new character that we know very little about to defeat BOB. If that was not a dream, it would seem to be very lazy story-telling and amateurish. At least to me.
I think in a way, we are all right. Again, that's the beauty of the show. TP belongs to all of us and its ambiguity is what makes it moldable into a plethora of interpretations. This one is just the one I'm sticking with as it seems to have the least amount of holes.
I hope people at least start realizing that the battle scene in franks office is a dream even if they don't accept the season is. I refuse to believe that Twin Peaks, the show I've absolutely love would end the bob story arc in such a cartoonish ridiculous. I've said this before: I really love that fight scene but it's meant to be hilarious. It was fan service, not real and it was purposely over the top. From this perspective, it's a very interesting psycho-analytical examination of a man facing (battling with) his own subconscious.
I can think of several reasons for the quick and silly disposal of BOB.
1) (already mentioned) Twin Peaks has NEVER been above clownish absurdity.
2) The whole ending was supposed to undermine our understanding of what this show was about. We thought it was about restoring Coop and dispatching Mr. C and confronting BOB. It turns out - surprise! - this was about something much bigger: the thing that created BOB, and the secret plan to get rid of it. Lynch being Lynch, he just didn't feel like telling us - except in a way, he did. The huge scope of this season... the multiple locations... the dive inside the nuclear horror that started it all... In hindsight, it all suggested this was about something bigger than Twin Peaks and its little local demon.
But in case we didn't get that yet, the Sheriff's Station scene was there to throw cold water on our little ideas about BOB and Mr. C: "Ha. You thought that was the point? That was a JOKE. Now we'll be getting to the point."
3) Sadly, Frank Silva is dead. There's only so much you can do with his image without getting downright stupid. (So hey, they decided to embrace the "stupid.") On the off chance Twin Peaks continues, I think they wanted to be done with BOB. They don't want to be pigeon-holed into repurposing 27-year-old footage of his face every time they want to show us something about the nature of evil. Conveniently, this also gave them the chance to raise the stakes: It's not about BOB anymore - it's about JUDY.
To guys who don't belive in dreamer. You know it isn't only about a glove or a key ?
What is real or what is not ? Real can be everything that fit a world created by author. So in Avengers, real is Hulk, Thor etc...they powers can be compared to Nadine or this green glove or Bob with power to lock woman into door knob. And that's a real world. But here is something else wrong, the story is wrong and logical consequences are wrong.
We know that because it is not a theory, but it is said in film.
Gordon: "Briggs, Coop and I made a plan that can lead us to Judy and then something happened to Briggs and Coop" "The last Coop told me was: If I dissapeared like the others do anything you can to find me" "And now this thing of two Coopers" "And I don't know if this plan unfolding properly"
This is no sense. First, the plan was about going to Judy. When they talked ? Because that what happened to Briggs was after Cooper entered Black Lodge. So they talked to Doppelganger ? If yes, Dale don't know nothing about it. Second if it was before Dale Cooper entered Black Lodge, the plan must fail. Because it is not a plan to enter Black Lodge, waiting there 25 years, and then go out to continue Judy's plan. We know that because, Dale Cooper tried to escape from Black Lodge. The only reason why he is still there was that doppelganger caught up with him. It's not a plan.
And that should be end of speculations. But ok, let see what next:
Let's for a moment think that it is a plan, and Coop is comming back after 25 years in Black Lodge to do a Judy's plan. What happened ? Arm Doopelganger appear and throw him down. That's why he met Naido. That's why he wake up as dumb Dougie. If there wasn't this situation, Cooper should simply replace Dougie. Say his family he need to leave, but be back. Told Mike to do a seed for Dougie back. He would leave them as fast as possible. So, he would never met Mitchum brothers AND never met Naido. She would be still sitting there in her strange place. So, at ep17 we see Cooper that think everything is going right to the plan. And it's ok there are Mitchum Brothers and their 3 girls.
Next. We see that on this plan is Mike ! So if we belive that doppelganger Arm interaction was in a plan, why is Mike saying "Something is wrong" !!! If it is wrong, Naido and Mitchum brothers are not in a plan.
Last. Gordon Cole do nothing in this plan. He only come at the end to say "Coop" two times. And Coop is acting like he is important when he is comming. He do nothing, he only dissapear, and later he stay out the door. Look carefully, they didn't reach Judy ! All that happened was Bob defeated. To enter a door with this key, noone of them is needed. It would be like, Coop wake up as Dougie, he travel to Twin Peaks hotel, go to basement, enter to Mike. Noone else is needed. And remember Gordon Cole had to find Coop if he dissapear. It's 25 years later and he didn't find him. BUT wait HAHA I now remembered something, Cooper place a fork to socket because he hear in TV "Gordon Cole". Ok so he did it, he found our Coop and wake him up. But don't you think a way that happened is a ridiculus way ? He is in TV, in a movie 🙂 How more unbelievable should it be.
And now when a story is bullshit, over other things we start to wonder. Here is a place for a key, Candy, endless bleeding man in jail without medical help, glove and so on. It is a secondary, not primary ! Primary is unreal storyline.
Now is my theory. Cooper in background didn't apeared because he dreamed about magic glove. It appeared there because he understood how ridiculus this all is. And I no wonder why he appear when he see Naido. It's not because her look, as we know he isn't worried about magical things that happens. Well as Dougie he had many of them. He is worried because he see someone who fell into space and now the same person is just standing in Sherrif Station. He looks pretty scaried when he stay on a metal box. Here is a dream place, when a scary moment apeared, he start to have lucid dream. When she closed to him, he changed that ugly face to someone who he know, Diane. It's simple why he didn't do that before when they first met. Because now is a lucid dream, and he can change things. He simply end's it up.
WE LIVE INSIDE A DREAM
I tried for many days find another place for a dreamer than Black Lodge. But I failed, I cannot find that logical together story. I rewatched episodes and then I saw in ep4 moment when they talked to Doppelganger Coop...and I hear:
"I have never really left HOME Gordon"
and I remembered:
"You are here, now there is no place to go BUT HOME!"
I really don't like this version and tried to find another way to place a dreamer. But for now this dude on YouTube looks like have right for me.
If we stay at Black Lodge dream there is 3 times it have beggining. 3 times Mike say "it is futute or it is past". And what is sad at first time Lynch show us exactly what's happening. He lost very fast and all start again. He is lost to Judy/Sarah Palmer because we see her white horse. Everything going black and floor shaking...then he start again.
I can even spot you where is a dreamer at last part. He is facing the Arm and he hear "Is it a story about a little girl who lived down the lane" Camera is on his face and suddently Laura is whispering him something to ear. This is a dream part. It's another trial for him.
So did he found a peace ? No. At the end we see another whispering to the ear...it is just what Hawk said about Black Lodge, a trial. But Cooper entered there alive, as I remember it is a trial for someone who died. That what Hawk meaned. What's worse he gave his soul for rescue Annie. His moments in Black Lodge show us simply rules, they do with him whatever they want. They trick him even that Arm is good and he have another evil Arm. AND at last I
found a solution, what's all about 25 years later. Because it is not a loop in meaning he did like hundreds of trials. He didn't sit there 25 years. When we first time see Black Lodge he is old S01E02. Just like that. No explanations why he is old. So there are things happening just like that, isn't it a words of little magician ? So what we see in season 3 it can be just his first trial, he start it as old man. First fast ended with fail. Second looks better but again he dropped down and useless things happened. The last one looks the best, he can even move a
curtain and there is no place for pointless things. Diane is waiting right there, no need to pass throught Mitchum story and others. He just heading forward. Maybe next one will be better...
MK[interviewer]: The key line is, "We live inside a dream." Do we?
DL: Very much, we do.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2007/feb/08/davidlynch
From 2007 interview, it seems Lynch could agree with the statement in real life, so what value does the statement have in a work of fiction by him? Well, it could have been whimsical, as they don't talk more about it.
Perhaps the emphasis in all discussions has been too much on the "dream", it's more like "we LIVE inside a dream".
I didn't mind the key. I guess the key opens the door, because 3 & 15. Or because it's green. Or Cooper gained Matrix-like capabilities to do what ever the hell he pleases. Sorry, I've become a bit theory-weary :/
I can buy into that. Really, you can replace the word dream with another reality or dimension and it still works. I don't mean "dream" as in what we experience when we go to sleep at night. I'm suggesting that in the TP world, dreams are a type of dimension or reality. Maybe the original series was our reality, but it too is a "false" reality, but it's the dimension that coop is originally from. In that reality, some strange things happen (Josie turns into a door knob, etc.). And the FBI/military are trying to figure it all out. Maybe they will get closer in the final dossier. Yes, strange things happen all throughout the original series, but not even close to how it is in the return. What happened to the whole "only some people can see Bob (Laura, Sarah, coop). You had to be gifted to see him. Now, everyone in franks office saw all of what happened with the Bob blob and all that other magical stuff? Makes no sense and would be (IN MY OPINION) bad writing. Lynch and frost don't do bad writing.
Fire walk with