Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
I'm surprised I haven't come across this discussion yet, but I have to say that one of the hardest pills for me to swallow with The Return was the completely out-of-left-field and totally bogus Dale and Diane romance. I say it is bogus because:
1) There was never any indication in the original series that their relationship was anything more than platonic and likely only professional. But more importantly...
2) Dale was in a relationship with Annie Blackburn at the time he went into The Lodge, where in fact he went for the explicit purpose of saving her, and he has not left in the 25 years since he entered. And yet, as soon as he and Diane are reunited we're supposed to accept that they were an item the whole time. Stupid.
I would love to hear your convoluted justifications for this narrative travesty. ;P
Well, I don't think anyone will write something smart that will be logical and real. Many things in season 3 are completly surrealism, out of any logic. It can be hard for someone who don't accept dreamer theory, but the only clue gave us Cooper. He is watching their love from background and his conclusion was "we live inside a dream".
Or maybe there is part of rational way 🙂 If we accept that Dale Cooper was real person in season 1 and 2, then he lost in lodge at the end. So in season 3, he is a dreamer, not in meaning he sleep. He just dream about romance with Diane, while sitting on the chair in lodge/waiting room or whatever he is 🙂 So here we got only half story as a dream and part as real.
There can be many interpretation, but can we completly reject dreamer theory ? It's David Lynch himself as Gordon Cole tell us about a dreamer who dreams and live in a dream.
There can be many interpretation, but can we completly reject dreamer theory ? It's David Lynch himself as Gordon Cole tell us about a dreamer who dreams and live in a dream.
I am trying to reject it, just because it's so played out and I want to believe that Lynch is better than that.
Ok I understand. But then you need another film that will explain. Because in what we saw there is no logical explanation about big love between Coop and Diane. Neither there is no logical explanation why he just forget Annie at all.
But to be honest, If there would be season 4. I don't think this would be explain. They just will go forward.
Well, I don't think anyone will write something smart that will be logical and real. Many things in season 3 are completly surrealism, out of any logic. It can be hard for someone who don't accept dreamer theory, but the only clue gave us Cooper. He is watching their love from background and his conclusion was "we live inside a dream".
Or maybe there is part of rational way 🙂 If we accept that Dale Cooper was real person in season 1 and 2, then he lost in lodge at the end. So in season 3, he is a dreamer, not in meaning he sleep. He just dream about romance with Diane, while sitting on the chair in lodge/waiting room or whatever he is 🙂 So here we got only half story as a dream and part as real.
There can be many interpretation, but can we completly reject dreamer theory ? It's David Lynch himself as Gordon Cole tell us about a dreamer who dreams and live in a dream.
Because there is no romance between them. They were doing a sex magic ritual so they could cross to the new Universe.
I think after Cooper prevented the murder of Laura, some things changed in Twin Peaks. Cooper was no longer infected with Bob, so he is free to begin searching for Laura who is now a missing person. Over the years, he falls in love with Diane, and together they search for Laura. Something goes wrong, because Diane seems to go bad and vanish, while Cooper is now waking up as Richard, in much the same way he woke up as Dougie. I think it can all be explained through a time travel paradox. They only fall in love because Cooper goes back in time and changes the past, making it possible for them to do so. When Diane appears, the past has already been altered, so they are now living an alternate timeline in which they are in love.
My reading of the Diane and Cooper relationship is linked to the fundamental theme of all three series, that of sexual violence. The Red Room is a kind of purgatory for souls that are both victims and perpetrators of sexual violence, that is why Cooper spends time there. The common thread between Laura Palmer, Annie and Diane is that they are victims of sexual violence. The tulpas for me are the disassociated states of those affected by violence, no longer able to be themselves they symbolically become someone else. Dougie for me is Cooper coping with the guilt and shame of his past actions, Annie was very young, it was the unbalanced power relationship and Coopers interest in her caused her harm. Cooper, remember struggled with turning down Audrey's underage advances. Mr C and Cooper are the same, they are the Dreamer and Dreamed, the same coin (remember the weird scene with Ray and Richard). Cooper wakes up when he is filled with enough positive 'creamed corn' and can reconcile and heal from his violent actions. This explains Cooper's interest in the Laura Palmer murder. Its personal, his obsession with making things right by 'saving' Laura is his own struggle with his past and 'that night' . His notes to Diane are messages of penance, trying to make things good between them, this why he just cant call her, kinda creepy sending Dictaphone tapes, right. It doesn't matter that Annie isn't present, she is to Cooper yet another female Tulpa an empty shell affected by trauma. Cooper oddly calls Diane, Diana in ep 17, bit of a stretch maybe Di Annie (two Annies). The dear John at the hotel room makes sense using this logic. The appearance of yet another Diane is more evidence of her disassociated state. I believe that Cooper was never squeaky clean from the beginning. Philip Jeffrey's accusations in FWWM seem potent with this reading.
If Cooper prevented Laura's death, Cooper would have never gone to Twin Peaks and met Annie. But, he would still have known Diane.
The sex scene in Ep. 18 was creepy and confusing, thus totally Lynchian. For one thing, it went on forever, but this is what we expect of Lynch. But the creepiest part was Diane violently covering Dale's face. If she remembers the rape at the hands of Mr. C, it's understandable.
Dale waking up and discovering THEY are Richard and Linda: a disappointment and a total red herring when we thought Richard was Richard Horne and Linda was the lady in the Fat Trout in need of a new wheelchair. (Or Audrey, according to my misguided theory.) I didn't like it but okay, Lynch gave it to us this way. I would have preferred that Diane herself left the note, realizing she could not be with Dale after what Mr. C did to her.
Is Dale Richard when he leads Carrie/Laura to her old home? No idea and I doubt we'll have an answer, unless there is a S4 and/or "The Final Dossier" clarifies things.
Well, I don't think anyone will write something smart that will be logical and real. Many things in season 3 are completly surrealism, out of any logic. It can be hard for someone who don't accept dreamer theory, but the only clue gave us Cooper. He is watching their love from background and his conclusion was "we live inside a dream".
Or maybe there is part of rational way 🙂 If we accept that Dale Cooper was real person in season 1 and 2, then he lost in lodge at the end. So in season 3, he is a dreamer, not in meaning he sleep. He just dream about romance with Diane, while sitting on the chair in lodge/waiting room or whatever he is 🙂 So here we got only half story as a dream and part as real.
There can be many interpretation, but can we completly reject dreamer theory ? It's David Lynch himself as Gordon Cole tell us about a dreamer who dreams and live in a dream.
Because there is no romance between them. They were doing a sex magic ritual so they could cross to the new Universe.
This is what I think too. They had to do it. It was a task to be completed.
Well, I don't think anyone will write something smart that will be logical and real. Many things in season 3 are completly surrealism, out of any logic. It can be hard for someone who don't accept dreamer theory, but the only clue gave us Cooper. He is watching their love from background and his conclusion was "we live inside a dream".
Or maybe there is part of rational way 🙂 If we accept that Dale Cooper was real person in season 1 and 2, then he lost in lodge at the end. So in season 3, he is a dreamer, not in meaning he sleep. He just dream about romance with Diane, while sitting on the chair in lodge/waiting room or whatever he is 🙂 So here we got only half story as a dream and part as real.
There can be many interpretation, but can we completly reject dreamer theory ? It's David Lynch himself as Gordon Cole tell us about a dreamer who dreams and live in a dream.
Because there is no romance between them. They were doing a sex magic ritual so they could cross to the new Universe.
This. There was no love or romance there. It was a necessary act to cross over to yet another reality/universe - which also explains why neither of them isn't enjoying the act. Also, Diane seems to lose herself during the whole thing - she looks confused, desperate, and in pain; I think part of her remembered being raped by BadCoop, hence the covering of Coop's face. Or maybe - but I have nothing at all to support this idea - Diane tried to shield Coop from losing himself and becoming another person while realising that she herself was changing. When he wakes up, Coop still thinks he's Coop (although he acts differently) even though Diane calls him "Richard" in her letter. So maybe her covering his face with her hands prevented him from losing all his personality while crossing? I don't know... the whole scene was very disturbing yet felt necessary. Bottom line is: This wasn't a love story. It was a necessity.
I see you all are mostly referring to the sex scene, but that's not what I was referring to. I agree it was an act of sex magick.
I've also seen several mentions of Cooper's changing the past erasing the timeline in which he met Annie.
HOWEVER, the "romance" to which I'm referring is depicted before Cooper goes back in time to save Laura, as soon as Diane is released from Naido in the sheriff's station, she and Cooper share a rather passionate kiss, moreso than any physical intimacy that occurs after Laura is pulled into Judy's world, the implication being that they had been in an intimate relationship before Coop went into the Lodge.
Yeah, no I agree. I could see them maybe having a romantic moment before, like when Diane says they only kissed once before, but I was bothered by the fact that it went straight into what felt like a pretty developed romance between the two of them. They had to know that was going to get a mixed reaction though, you can't have Annie leave a message for Laura in the diary (WHICH THEY READ IN THE SHOW) and then expect everyone to conveniently ignore Dale and Annie in favor of Dale and Diane.
My only guesses are either that 1) In all that time trapped in the other worlds both Dale and Diane had a lot of time to think about the people they cared about. 2) It was meant to be intentionally unreal to the audience, which goes along with the dream thing... I mean how many times in dreams are you suddenly with someone you're not really with or 3) they sloppily wanted Cooper over Annie so they could develop his relationship with Diane to a point where you could believe he would have sex with her in that scene.
I don't really love my guesses but there they are.
This also explains why she is so disturbed when they are having sex. Also Cooper really looks like Mr. C. I mean that stare. She just cannot believe she`s actually aroused by him.(So many characters of Lynch linger on this thin line). It almost looks to me that part 18 as a whole, shows two different time lines, and thus 2 journeys. Because Diane also had a similar journey with Mr. C, the story her tulpa told in part 16. So only up untill the end of this part 18 your in doubt of who is who. I mean at beginning we are explicitly asked: Is it Past or is it Future?
My convoluted justification, huh? Well there's a welcoming invitation if I've ever heard (read) one.
Anyhow, this whole deal between Cooper and Diane did not sit well with me either. Tulpa Diane did say that they had kissed before Mr. C raped her. But I wasn't clear if they were supposed to be in love or just really good "partners in crime." I do like the idea posted earlier about no love, just necessity. But that kiss after Diane de-Naido'ed............
Annie never existed and is no part of the equation. She has been erased from history, like a few others. The only prediction I got right was that she would be nowhere near this new season. She was part of the "dark times" of season 2. I'm shocked she even had her little cameo in FWWM. But this is Lynch & Frost's story. They can do with it as they please and they clearly had no qualms about taking whatever liberties they wanted to take. (i.e. Deer Meadow is located where?)
Fire walk with 
