Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
A lot of people, based on the note she left, seem to feel that Diane did not make it through at 430 as herself, and has become Linda. But it seems that Diane is aware of this as a role she is playing. She asks, 'what happens now' as though she knows that there are certain actions that are expected, things to be done, almost as though to fulfill a prophecy, to meet expectations. But when she and Coop are having sex she feels that Mr C is still with him, part of him. Coop, the original good Coop is gone again, and she can't stomach reenacting in any way the rape she's already endured. Diane is unwilling to endure the mission if it means doing it with Mr C in any form, no matter how diluted. Is it future or is it past. Seen from the future of the next day, that scene makes sense as Linda finally realizing that she no longer recognizes the Richard she once loved. From the past she's all too able to recognize Mr C.
Hi Mike,
So, Richard is in our world, imagining Cooper?
Richard as Walter Mitty, fantasizing Dale Cooper! That's not bad either, considering Walter Mitty's daydreams don't really do too well, including dying by firing squad! 😉
- /< /\ /> -
Sorta like this.. but I'm thinking more like Mulholland Drive where the last part of the movie was reality and most of the stuff that came before was in Betty's mind.
I think when we see Richard (who is confusing himself with Dale Cooper) come out of the motel room, then that is when we see reality happening. He has just dreamed/thought of the time that he had a tryst with Linda in the motel only to end with her leaving him.
I'm playing with the idea that he is obsessed with saving women that have suffered from domestic violence (Carrie Page the perfect example among many in this show). Who knows, maybe he just can't get out of his mind the actual famous murder that happened in Odessa that mirrored what we saw with Laura Palmer.
I am still struggling with potential time lapse or out of time sequence story telling. I get the feeling Andy with Fireman and Dale with Tea Pot Bowie both saw something not shown to us as the camera angle changed both times mid-shot.
I wonder if the car/hotel change at the end was suggestive of a time lapse.
I read an interesting idea about the sequencing of episodes 17 and 18 that shed a different light on the end.
Vote: ??????? (Fireman?)
Same: 2
Diff: 3
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Cyndee,
Oh, believe me, I never thought we would all agree - guess the "All" in my title is misleading and poorly chosen. Bad, bad, baaadd binoculars!
And, of course, the whole thread was set up to discuss the idea. 🙂
Anyway, should I put you down as Dale or undecided? Maybe even abstention. Hard to tell, really! 😉
(with apologies to Cheap Trick)
I've had enough, I'm tired of waiting
The time has come to pass
Why do you do what you do to me
Why can't you say what you want to say
Is it not worth investigating
I thought (i'd been harassed)
Why do you go if you want to stay
How will I know what you mean to say
Undoubtedly I'm all over you
It's not that easy baby
It's not that hard to tell
It's not that easy baby
Life is hell but I'm doing fine.
It's hard to tell
I'm not good at contemplating
The odds are it won't last
Why do you do what you do to me
When will I hear what I want to hear
Been so long anticipating
You put me to the test
Why won't you say what you want to say
How will I know if you mean to stay
Undeniably I'm all over you
It's hard to tell
I do it well
It's hard to tell
Hard to tell- /< /\ /> -
hehe
Put me down as Dale, I guess.
I actually have a theory of sorts about this--that the whole "kill two birds with one stone" is to MAKE SURE THAT "RICHARD" IN ODESSA REMEMBERS HE IS COOPER.
Boy those caps are loud, sorry for that.
Something happened to throw Diane and Cooper into bed in Odessa and "Richard" wakes up with his identity intact as Dale Cooper. Not the sprightly, happy Dale we loved, but that was already changing in the Sheriff's station anyway. He's a lot more focused. I thought it was fascinating that Clint Eastwood's daughter played the waitress in the Judy's Diner--because Cooper was giving off an Eastwood kind of vibe to me. He has to remember he is Dale so that he can help Carrie remember she is Laura. That's the two birds: remember he is Cooper/help Carrie remember she is Laura.
Maybe.
A lot of people, based on the note she left, seem to feel that Diane did not make it through at 430 as herself, and has become Linda. But it seems that Diane is aware of this as a role she is playing. She asks, 'what happens now' as though she knows that there are certain actions that are expected, things to be done, almost as though to fulfill a prophecy, to meet expectations. But when she and Coop are having sex she feels that Mr C is still with him, part of him. Coop, the original good Coop is gone again, and she can't stomach reenacting in any way the rape she's already endured. Diane is unwilling to endure the mission if it means doing it with Mr C in any form, no matter how diluted. Is it future or is it past. Seen from the future of the next day, that scene makes sense as Linda finally realizing that she no longer recognizes the Richard she once loved. From the past she's all too able to recognize Mr C.
Exactly, but when the morning comes. The one who wakes up, is definetly Coop right? And not Mr. C who had that creepy stare during their sexual encounter. So what if Diane bailed out because she made this trip before with Mr. C and knows Coop is looking for Laura, and she has no place being there. Also I think the Linda-Richard note is a signal not a real identity.
I think Richard is what happened to Dale Cooper after he interfered with the history of Laura Palmer. So, the same guy as before but different.
Everything changes and after a while he doesn't even notice.
Vote: Same
Same: 3
Diff: 3
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Sam,
Interesting. That brings to mind two questions:
I infer from your response that Cooper is being punished by someone. Who? Or do you think it was just a kind of accidental science experiment gone awry?
Since you apparently agree Cooper's personality has changed, too, did the change have anything to do at all with Mr. C?
Guess that's three questions! 😉
- /< /\ /> -
No, I don't think he's being punished. Just a consequence of the universe being changed. Sort of, as you mentioned, an experiment gone wrong. I think he somehow caused a ripple effect that's damaged reality, or he's being resisted by Judy. Either way, it's not going well.
Nothing to do with Mr C. I don't even think Mr C is an issue with anyone, not now.
I think Richard is what happened to Dale Cooper after he interfered with the history of Laura Palmer. So, the same guy as before but different.
Everything changes and after a while he doesn't even notice.
Vote: Same
Same: 3
Diff: 3
Undec: 1
Abstain: 1
Hi Sam,
Interesting. That brings to mind two questions:
I infer from your response that Cooper is being punished by someone. Who? Or do you think it was just a kind of accidental science experiment gone awry?
Since you apparently agree Cooper's personality has changed, too, did the change have anything to do at all with Mr. C?
Guess that's three questions! 😉
- /< /\ /> -
No, I don't think he's being punished. Just a consequence of the universe being changed. Sort of, as you mentioned, an experiment gone wrong. I think he somehow caused a ripple effect that's damaged reality, or he's being resisted by Judy. Either way, it's not going well.
Nothing to do with Mr C. I don't even think Mr C is an issue with anyone, not now.
Sam, I'm not sure that Cooper did anything wrong--I think he was supposed to "wake up" Carrie and he did. Something is totally wrong with the world, but it always has been right? At least since episode 8's events. Judy issue is certainly not resolved, if it ever can be, but I suspect the "horrible awful story" that Sarah talks about needs some kind of resolution and that's the BIG story that hasn't ended yet. More and more, I think we have not seen the last of this tale.
Also I don't think Cooper (in any of his iterations) knew about Sarah, really--her association with the big bad (I think, now, with Judy).
I still believe the Fireman warned him it was a bad idea. I think the substance of the message from the Fireman was that he had things under control and Cooper should stop because it was making things worse: "It is in our house now".
Mike and the Arm were helping Cooper because it suited their agenda to get Mr C and Bob back, or at least neutralized. Maybe they thought - or hoped - Cooper would stop there, not realizing he'd want to go the whole hog and rescue Laura.
I know it all seems very glib and straightforward when it's set out like this but I haven't yet seen another set of ideas that takes care of pretty much everything that's happened. That's not to say I'm hopelessly wrong, either. I'm open to ideas and have no real stake in this one. I'd love to know the "truth" as much as anyone, so my suggestions aren't something I'd make a religion out of. ?
I still believe the Fireman warned him it was a bad idea. I think the substance of the message from the Fireman was that he had things under control and Cooper should stop because it was making things worse: "It is in our house now".
Mike and the Arm were helping Cooper because it suited their agenda to get Mr C and Bob back, or at least neutralized. Maybe they thought - or hoped - Cooper would stop there, not realizing he'd want to go the whole hog and rescue Laura.
I know it all seems very glib and straightforward when it's set out like this but I haven't yet seen another set of ideas that takes care of pretty much everything that's happened. That's not to say I'm hopelessly wrong, either. I'm open to ideas and have no real stake in this one. I'd love to know the "truth" as much as anyone, so my suggestions aren't something I'd make a religion out of. ?
What would we call such a religion?
What would we call a religion that worships twin peaks? What would we call the followers? Peaksies?
Just to make sure you all keep having those nightmares lol:
I looked up versions of jowday and found this:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/joudai
This sits rather well with my theory that Judy is a voidlord--or The Void--which is in line with mythologies of the eternal feminine and nightmares about vagina dentata (the void, but with teeth--Sarah's face for example). A malevolent void.
You're welcome.
If Cooper made an error, it's in inadvertently awakening this--the thing Hawk said you don't wanna mess with, I believe. But the problem is that it's already awake. Maybe it's Cooper's fault, maybe it's everyone's fault.
Just to make sure you all keep having those nightmares lol:
I looked up versions of jowday and found this:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/joudai
This sits rather well with my theory that Judy is a voidlord--or The Void--which is in line with mythologies of the eternal feminine and nightmares about vagina dentata (the void, but with teeth--Sarah's face for example). A malevolent void.
You're welcome.
If Cooper made an error, it's in inadvertently awakening this--the thing Hawk said you don't wanna mess with, I believe. But the problem is that it's already awake. Maybe it's Cooper's fault, maybe it's everyone's fault.
Pete Peppers has a good video on Judy--other variations (mostly Chinese) of Jiao Dei. One of those is "scream" and another is "to explain." I think these all reinforce the presence of Judy as this thing or force and ties it up beautifully with that final scream. Also as he points out, Judy was originally apparently going to be a person or something quite less big and cosmic in FWWM. Tying together the Josie/Judy story and Buenos Ares would be really hard, even probably for Lynch and Frost.
I feel like the change from one Coop to another occurred specifically as he and Diane crossed over the 430 mile mark, at the electricity pylons – did anyone else notice the way he was driving? When Coop had just woken up from his coma and was driving Janey E and Sonny Jim to the casino, Sonny Jim commented on his great driving and I laughed because the steering wheel was going all over the place. When Coop and Diane are driving in the daytime, the wheel is moving the same way, then as soon as they cross over at the pylons and it’s night, the wheel is noticeably completely still.
The 430 mile mark also looked to me like the place where Bad Coop crashed his car and managed to prevent himself getting pulled back into the lodge, meaning the real Dougie went in instead. This would imply it’s a magical place where people and doppelgangers can be swapped over or relocated, facilitated by the electricity.
Could it be that Good Coop actually went back to Janey E and 'Richard' is the newest Tulpa created from the hair of Good Coop and the seed from Mr C? It would help explain why he acts like he does, with aspects of all the Coops - looking to help Laura like Good Coop, emotionlessly shooting the cowboys like Mr C would, and the kind of blankness of the other tulpa, Dougie.
I love reading everyone's theories, even though none of us will ever really know!
I agree with the spirit of this, if not all the details. I don't discount that Coop actually went to Vegas, leaving the mission to his Tulpa....but that my be just my innate wish for his character to have a happy life.
I happen to think the driving scene to the 4:30 mark takes place in the 1960s. The occupants of the old car which arrives at the old motel are Richard and Linda. That's not to say Coop and Diane are not making the same journey with the intent to cross over in present day, they are, but we are not witnessing that.
When Coop leaves the motel (now in present day) everything is different, including him. Has he merged with Richard? Has Richard replaced him, with Coop now in the past replacing Richard? What happened to Diane?
For lack of a better term, the occurrence at 430 is the loop point in the story.
I feel like the change from one Coop to another occurred specifically as he and Diane crossed over the 430 mile mark, at the electricity pylons – did anyone else notice the way he was driving? When Coop had just woken up from his coma and was driving Janey E and Sonny Jim to the casino, Sonny Jim commented on his great driving and I laughed because the steering wheel was going all over the place. When Coop and Diane are driving in the daytime, the wheel is moving the same way, then as soon as they cross over at the pylons and it’s night, the wheel is noticeably completely still.
The 430 mile mark also looked to me like the place where Bad Coop crashed his car and managed to prevent himself getting pulled back into the lodge, meaning the real Dougie went in instead. This would imply it’s a magical place where people and doppelgangers can be swapped over or relocated, facilitated by the electricity.
Could it be that Good Coop actually went back to Janey E and 'Richard' is the newest Tulpa created from the hair of Good Coop and the seed from Mr C? It would help explain why he acts like he does, with aspects of all the Coops - looking to help Laura like Good Coop, emotionlessly shooting the cowboys like Mr C would, and the kind of blankness of the other tulpa, Dougie.
I love reading everyone's theories, even though none of us will ever really know!
I agree with the spirit of this, if not all the details. I don't discount that Coop actually went to Vegas, leaving the mission to his Tulpa....but that my be just my innate wish for his character to have a happy life.
I happen to think the driving scene to the 4:30 mark takes place in the 1960s. The occupants of the old car which arrives at the old motel are Richard and Linda. That's not to say Coop and Diane are not making the same journey with the intent to cross over in present day, they are, but we are not witnessing that.
When Coop leaves the motel (now in present day) everything is different, including him. Has he merged with Richard? Has Richard replaced him, with Coop now in the past replacing Richard? What happened to Diane?
For lack of a better term, the occurrence at 430 is the loop point in the story.
The only problem with this is that Cooper quite pointedly says DIANE before they start making out in the motel, and she doesn't correct him or look startled.
Just to make sure you all keep having those nightmares lol:
I looked up versions of jowday and found this:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/joudai
This sits rather well with my theory that Judy is a voidlord--or The Void--which is in line with mythologies of the eternal feminine and nightmares about vagina dentata (the void, but with teeth--Sarah's face for example). A malevolent void.
You're welcome.
If Cooper made an error, it's in inadvertently awakening this--the thing Hawk said you don't wanna mess with, I believe. But the problem is that it's already awake. Maybe it's Cooper's fault, maybe it's everyone's fault.
Love and Fear open the doors, said Major Briggs. Maybe there is indeed a mistake by Cooper. Also Hawk warned Cooper about confronting the Lodge with imperfect courage or something. I mean have we just watched two (or three) journeys in part 18, one done by Cooper and one done by Mr. C?
I keep going back to what Carrie/Laura said: Normally when someone like YOU shows up I slam the door in their face. Was Mr. C there before? Pfff I`m lost for the moment.
Fire walk with 
