Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
y'all Lynches postin' in a troll thread.
His is just a panic reaction, nothing to really consider seriously.
I miss Dougie, I really do...
But, now was the time to bring back Cooper, and I personally love that he's fully awake and on a mission. Cooper previously had no knowledge of these events, so his character was more wide-eyed and curious, seeing the good in all.
I think setting him up now, for the showdown, is the best time and way to do it, and for the 'balance of the show' argument, it was time to tilt that balance anyway. Dougie, as much as I love him, would have been killed by Bad Coop in about 30 seconds.
Also, in regards to his new attitude, he's going to be more clued up; considering the fate of reality is in balance, he really does not have time to stop and explain everything. Social niceties won't help right now, yet he still has the heart of Gold he always has, shown by his affection and respect towards everyone who helped him.
I'm not sure how, in anyway, he has been condescending or rude.
"Bushnell, I will not soon forgive your kindness.'
'You both have filled my heart.'
'You both have hearts of Gold.'
Hardly rude, is it? People these days mistake anybody who's slightly commanding for a rude prick, and it's more a reflection of our current mentality than it is Lynch's writing that you feel this way.
Coop's also always been quick to order people when things get done anyway.
I miss Dougie, I really do...
But, now was the time to bring back Cooper, and I personally love that he's fully awake and on a mission. Cooper previously had no knowledge of these events, so his character was more wide-eyed and curious, seeing the good in all.
I think setting him up now, for the showdown, is the best time and way to do it, and for the 'balance of the show' argument, it was time to tilt that balance anyway. Dougie, as much as I love him, would have been killed by Bad Coop in about 30 seconds.
Also, in regards to his new attitude, he's going to be more clued up; considering the fate of reality is in balance, he really does not have time to stop and explain everything. Social niceties won't help right now, yet he still has the heart of Gold he always has, shown by his affection and respect towards everyone who helped him.I'm not sure how, in anyway, he has been condescending or rude.
"Bushnell, I will not soon forgive your kindness.'
'You both have filled my heart.'
'You both have hearts of Gold.'Hardly rude, is it? People these days mistake anybody who's slightly commanding for a rude prick, and it's more a reflection of our current mentality than it is Lynch's writing that you feel this way.
Coop's also always been quick to order people when things get done anyway.
Fair points, all. That said... I maintain that Dale Cooper's heroic return runs afoul of a more delicate, nuanced balance to the show so far that, for my money and IMO, was a good deal more interesting than where-- it would appear-- we are headed now. I hope I'm wrong!
That is to say, I think there was something uniquely compelling and original about ratcheting up the pathos of the supernatural stuff at work in The Return by insisting, contrary to audience expectations, that cooper has already returned inasmuch as he was delivered back to earth-- albeit forever changed from his experience on the 'other side' and , as such, no longer recognizable to the show's audience. If this fate could befall our beloved hero, the threat to all/everything was all the more immediate, palpable and terrifying. This is what I meant by "balanced."
... if, by contrast, Cooper's return plays out as this episode seems to suggest it might, a superhero totally in control and ready to bust all of the ghosts.... then I have to say I'm counting on having my new expectations of a "final showdown in which The Hero banishes evil from the land" and either dies doing so as a martyr figure or achieves this end only through the sacrifice of other beloved characters... not come to fruition.
We'll see!
I don't AGREE with the OP, but I don't think it was trolling. "You all are stupid for liking that stupid show, GoT rules"- THAT is trolling.
I think it is interesting that, after the first five episodes of impatience for Dale's return, and thinking it was imminent, we realized that there was a story here that did not DEPEND on Dale being at the center of it.
For my part, it made his return all the sweeter, and rather than finding him "patronizing, condescending and rude", I found him to be- Dale. emotionally intelligent, super-insightful...and on a mission, with a clok rapidly ticking down. I thought his farewell to Janey-e and SJ was beautiful, and wrenching for him. His thank you to Bushnell was heartfelt, and reminded me of Dale's friendship with Harry (so sad we won't see that reunion). As to his declaring who possible gangsters as having "hearts of gold", Dale has always been willing to play it a little fast and loose for a greater good (international border? No jurisdiction? HAH!).
I DO like that little theory about the Meecham's being tulpas ("hearts of gold") I must say, appropos of nothing.
I won't miss Dougie, but am hopeful that the Jones family will get the happy ending that seems to be dangled before us- a Dougie who can be a good, simple family man, while Dale walks a darker path- one I fear might require a sacrifice.
I completely agree with what you said there, buddy. Me and my sister had many discussions about how Dougie and Coop were different only in terms of speech and how fast they could think.
In terms of the heart and soul, he was the same character. He was Coop.
I actually find it very hard to argue with your well thought out opinion, other than a simple 'Well...yep, but it sure is good to get two episodes of Coop!'.
Now, had he come back at episode 13/14, it would have arguably been too much. But, I dunno, I kind of like the idea that he wakes up, assumes his responsibilities, and goes off to try and save the day.
I don't subscribe though, to the idea that he is in anyway a superhero. Other than disarming Ike, we've seen nothing physically supernatural about him. I think it will be a case of out-thinking Mr.C, rather than a straight up superhero showdown. A battle of wills rather than fists.
Though if Green Glove doesn't crush a Woodsman's head I'll be pissed.
What surprised me when Cooper came back is that he knew who everybody was, so he was conscious all the time, must have been hell for him.
Cooper is a great character, and one of my all-time favorites. He was a great guide for us into the world of Twin Peaks, but is it accurate to say he is a great criminal investigator?
He could not recall when Laura told him "My father killed me" in the dream. Oops.
He failed to save Maddie. The scene with senior droolcup patting his shoulder gently and saying "I am so sorry" is one of the most heart-wrenching of the series because it showed the failings of our hero.
He failed to capture Earle before he could be so destructive - even sitting mere feet from him at the RR diner at one point, but being too absorbed in his thoughts of Annie to notice.
Cooper was almost a helpless victim during the original series. However, he has seemed to gain a deep understanding of the Black Lodge while there for 25 years. Maybe he will use that knowledge to be successful in a manner we've actually not seen from him. At minimum, I hope he hasn't forgotten what Laura whispered this time.
I don't subscribe though, to the idea that he is in anyway a superhero. Other than disarming Ike, we've seen nothing physically supernatural about him. I think it will be a case of out-thinking Mr.C, rather than a straight up superhero showdown. A battle of wills rather than fists.
Though if Green Glove doesn't crush a Woodsman's head I'll be pissed.
I see where you're coming from. I should have been more clear, but I'm thinking of a "superhero narrative" as any story in which the audience knows in advance that the hero will prevail against all odds. Some such heroes are supernatural (Hi five, Freddy Sykes!), other simply prevail against all odds. But they always prevail, don't they? I liked the idea of calling that premise into question.
Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to see recognizable traits of dear Dale. Just a tad disappointed that Frost and Lynch didn't reach for something really unusual and unexpected by foregrounding Dougie himself as something/someone more consequential than a narrative problem to be resolved ... We'll see how things are resolved for Janey-E, Sonny Jim et al!
I don't subscribe though, to the idea that he is in anyway a superhero. Other than disarming Ike, we've seen nothing physically supernatural about him. I think it will be a case of out-thinking Mr.C, rather than a straight up superhero showdown. A battle of wills rather than fists.
Though if Green Glove doesn't crush a Woodsman's head I'll be pissed.
I see where you're coming from. I should have been more clear, but I'm thinking of a "superhero narrative" as any story in which the audience knows in advance that the hero will prevail against all odds. Some such heroes are supernatural (Hi five, Freddy Sykes!), other simply prevail against all odds. But they always prevail, don't they? I liked the idea of calling that premise into question.
Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to see recognizable traits of dear Dale. Just a tad disappointed that Frost and Lynch didn't reach for something really unusual and unexpected by foregrounding Dougie himself as something/someone more consequential than a narrative problem to be resolved ... We'll see how things are resolved for Janey-E, Sonny Jim et al!
I don't think it's very Lynchian to write that sort of superhero narrative, though. I think there was no other way to get the message through (that the old Dale was back), because it would've meant another week of people wondering "oh my god, is he really back or not?" and this just states in neon letters "HE'S BACK", but I'm not sure he will prevail against all odds. I'm guessing the ending will be at least a little heartbreaking.
I don't subscribe though, to the idea that he is in anyway a superhero. Other than disarming Ike, we've seen nothing physically supernatural about him. I think it will be a case of out-thinking Mr.C, rather than a straight up superhero showdown. A battle of wills rather than fists.
Though if Green Glove doesn't crush a Woodsman's head I'll be pissed.
I see where you're coming from. I should have been more clear, but I'm thinking of a "superhero narrative" as any story in which the audience knows in advance that the hero will prevail against all odds. Some such heroes are supernatural (Hi five, Freddy Sykes!), other simply prevail against all odds. But they always prevail, don't they? I liked the idea of calling that premise into question.
Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to see recognizable traits of dear Dale. Just a tad disappointed that Frost and Lynch didn't reach for something really unusual and unexpected by foregrounding Dougie himself as something/someone more consequential than a narrative problem to be resolved ... We'll see how things are resolved for Janey-E, Sonny Jim et al!
I don't think it's very Lynchian to write that sort of superhero narrative, though. I think there was no other way to get the message through (that the old Dale was back), because it would've meant another week of people wondering "oh my god, is he really back or not?" and this just states in neon letters "HE'S BACK", but I'm not sure he will prevail against all odds. I'm guessing the ending will be at least a little heartbreaking.
I hear you. I fully expect the end will be in some manner heartbreaking and that the body count will increase significantly.
I'm keen for an ending more like that of FWWM or Inland Empire, i.e., Blissfully ambiguous!
I don't AGREE with the OP, but I don't think it was trolling. "You all are stupid for liking that stupid show, GoT rules"- THAT is trolling.
I think it is interesting that, after the first five episodes of impatience for Dale's return, and thinking it was imminent, we realized that there was a story here that did not DEPEND on Dale being at the center of it.
For my part, it made his return all the sweeter, and rather than finding him "patronizing, condescending and rude", I found him to be- Dale. emotionally intelligent, super-insightful...and on a mission, with a clok rapidly ticking down. I thought his farewell to Janey-e and SJ was beautiful, and wrenching for him. His thank you to Bushnell was heartfelt, and reminded me of Dale's friendship with Harry (so sad we won't see that reunion). As to his declaring who possible gangsters as having "hearts of gold", Dale has always been willing to play it a little fast and loose for a greater good (international border? No jurisdiction? HAH!).
I DO like that little theory about the Meecham's being tulpas ("hearts of gold") I must say, appropos of nothing.
I won't miss Dougie, but am hopeful that the Jones family will get the happy ending that seems to be dangled before us- a Dougie who can be a good, simple family man, while Dale walks a darker path- one I fear might require a sacrifice.
Well put, MJ. Total agreement.
I don't AGREE with the OP, but I don't think it was trolling. "You all are stupid for liking that stupid show, GoT rules"- THAT is trolling.
I think it is interesting that, after the first five episodes of impatience for Dale's return, and thinking it was imminent, we realized that there was a story here that did not DEPEND on Dale being at the center of it.
For my part, it made his return all the sweeter, and rather than finding him "patronizing, condescending and rude", I found him to be- Dale. emotionally intelligent, super-insightful...and on a mission, with a clok rapidly ticking down. I thought his farewell to Janey-e and SJ was beautiful, and wrenching for him. His thank you to Bushnell was heartfelt, and reminded me of Dale's friendship with Harry (so sad we won't see that reunion). As to his declaring who possible gangsters as having "hearts of gold", Dale has always been willing to play it a little fast and loose for a greater good (international border? No jurisdiction? HAH!).
I DO like that little theory about the Meecham's being tulpas ("hearts of gold") I must say, appropos of nothing.
I won't miss Dougie, but am hopeful that the Jones family will get the happy ending that seems to be dangled before us- a Dougie who can be a good, simple family man, while Dale walks a darker path- one I fear might require a sacrifice.
Couldn't agree more re: the Jones family being deserving of a happy ending.
I"ll be content if there isn't a "good vs. evil" battle. This would be uncharacteristic of Twin Peaks, no?
We'll see...... : )
I think someone who feels that way about Cooper actually really feels that way about Lynch.
There has been a trend lately to find Lynch pretentious and patronizing, especially since the whole TM thing.
It's a logical reaction, not much based on anyting deep, but logical.
I dont find Lynch pretensious or patronizing at all. I love his movies.
I just dont like Agent Cooper, I never did, even in first seasons. His words like ""Bushnell, I will not soon forgive your kindness.''You both have filled my heart.''You both have hearts of Gold." sound too pathetically for me.
In this series were many touching scenes (for example in the restaurant with Mitchum brothers) but words of agent Cooper and his behavior are not touching my soul.
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Exactly how is SA Cooper patronizing or conceited? Why do you find him unbearable?
i'm not very good in English, so there is a possibility that the words 'patronizing , conceited" are not exactly what I mean. 😉 I mean that Agent Cooper was always too noble, too glad with himself, too proud, never make mistakes, like superhero - not human.
I think someone who feels that way about Cooper actually really feels that way about Lynch.
There has been a trend lately to find Lynch pretentious and patronizing, especially since the whole TM thing.
It's a logical reaction, not much based on anyting deep, but logical.
I dont find Lynch pretensious or patronizing at all. I love his movies.
I just dont like Agent Cooper, I never did, even in first seasons. His words like ""Bushnell, I will not soon forgive your kindness.''You both have filled my heart.''You both have hearts of Gold." sound too pathetically for me.
In this series were many touching scenes (for example in the restaurant with Mitchum brothers) but words of agent Cooper and his behavior are not touching my soul.
I think you are really missing out on the point that this kind of communication, from Cooper, isn't a common thing in the world. Cooper LOVES the town of Twin Peaks, because he belongs there. Twin Peaks is not normal, neither is Cooper. His language should not be taken so seriously or judged in this way, it carries an intended surreal quality, often it is meant to make you laugh. His character represents the positive, he has a childlike delight in the world and doesn't care to engage in ego, he is all about spirit.
Consider the use of humour and surreal intent in the writing of Twin Peaks. There is lots, esp. with Cooper. It's not meant to be serious, it's meant to be an experience and asks you to leave your ego at the door.
Fire walk with 
