Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
Ok. I got confused. I thought the stuff in quotes was referencing the Ruby in Twin Peaks. Now I see it's supposed to be referencing some Ruby cartoon character.
And just... for the record.... Charlyne Yi was born in Los Angeles, so she's not really Asian, per se. She is of Asian heritage. It's like saying Robert DeNiro is European.
My wife was born in Baltimore and she would shank you if you tried to tell her she is "not Asian".
I'm kind of kidding. Kind of.
I mean she's as "Asian" as any "African American" is "African", is she not?
Er, there is a difference between African-American and African. I recently spent some time with a delegation of scholars from Kenya. They were Africans. I also spent some time recently with my dad's side of the family. They were African-Americans.
To each their own, though. If your wife prefers to be called Asian, I would call her Asian. I guess it's not so much about that, as it is how we automatically label people certain ways. Going back to my example: Charlyne Yi is of Asian descent, so a lot (most?) people label her as Asian. Robert DeNiro is of Italian descent, but nobody labels him as European. It's our mindsets.
That, and having to endure people wondering if Ruby and Naido were played by the same actress, or if the two characters are somehow connected, because Asian.
It's just cringe-inducing / face-palming.
Well, as I never compared or contrasted Naido with "Ruby", that doesn't really apply to me.
And your family can evidently not be "From Africa" and be classified as "African American", but how dare anyone of Asian descent do the same? No, no - we have different standards for them! Different conventions!
Most Asians I know self-identify as Asian, whether it fits into your definition or not. Charylne herself has been quoted many times talking about or joking about her Asian heritage and not fitting into the media stereotype expected of "Asian girls".
But this entire conversation has now become ridiculous.
Aaaaaaaaand now I feel stupid for trying to explain myself.
Ok. I got confused. I thought the stuff in quotes was referencing the Ruby in Twin Peaks. Now I see it's supposed to be referencing some Ruby cartoon character.
And just... for the record.... Charlyne Yi was born in Los Angeles, so she's not really Asian, per se. She is of Asian heritage. It's like saying Robert DeNiro is European.
Kdawg was identifying the character, not the actress, as screaming Asian woman aka Ruby. Come on now 🙂 Seems accurate enough.
We know nothing about the character, other than her name is Ruby. She looks like Charlyne Yi (well, duh), and Charlyne Yi is American, so.....
I didn't realize you speak for the entire Asian race. I've learned something new in this thread. I'll be sure to tell them all that they are forbidden from identifying as Asian, because they aren't. Even though they have to say they are when taking standardized tests and such. It's all very complicated.
Easy there, tiger.
Please see my other response. I think that clarifies some things (hopefully).
I'm looking at it more as a societal problem, more than anything. And, as I said in that response, if your wife prefers to be called Asian, that is definitely what I would call her, no questions asked.
Race is a sensitive topic for me, being bi-racial (which is how I think of myself). I remember being in school, taking tests, and having to fill-in the oval next to which ethnicity I was. I filled-in the ovals next to black, and white. After turning-in the test, the teacher got up, came over to me, dropped it on the desk and told me to erase the 'white' oval. "But, my mom is white," I said. "I'm both." Didn't matter. To her (and society) I'm black.
This is all probably TMI, but I hope it helps explain my sensitivity to these matters.
Similarly, it's kind of offensive to immediately be pseudo-accused of "societal problems" for daring to notice that someone is Asian. People seem to be sitting on the edge of their seat just waiting to point fingers and claim such nonsense.
My kids are bi-racial as well (kind of obviously), so I know what you are describing.
I think, what you are kind of getting at with respect to Asians, is best illustrated in the old King of the Hill routine, where Kahn meets his new Texan neighbors, tells them his family is from Laos, and they reply with, "Are you Japanese, Chinese, or Ko-rean?"
I could go on at length about the mistreatment and stereotyping of Asians throughout the history of film, from Anna May Wong losing out on Asian roles to white actresses in yellow face, to the distinct lack of leading roles afforded Asian males. But none of that was the point.
We don't really know crap about Ruby at this point, beyond her being a female with Asiatic features who was observed crawling and screaming on the floor. I thought it was interesting that she portrays a similarly named character in an animated series, which I didn't even know existed, that has some familiar themes running through it.
How that got virtue-signaled into some pissing match about Asians and who can call themselves one is not at all what was intended or implied.
But let's put that to bed now.
Ok. I got confused. I thought the stuff in quotes was referencing the Ruby in Twin Peaks. Now I see it's supposed to be referencing some Ruby cartoon character.
And just... for the record.... Charlyne Yi was born in Los Angeles, so she's not really Asian, per se. She is of Asian heritage. It's like saying Robert DeNiro is European.
Kdawg was identifying the character, not the actress, as screaming Asian woman aka Ruby. Come on now 🙂 Seems accurate enough.
We know nothing about the character, other than her name is Ruby. She looks like Charlyne Yi (well, duh), and Charlyne Yi is American, so.....
I didn't realize you speak for the entire Asian race. I've learned something new in this thread. I'll be sure to tell them all that they are forbidden from identifying as Asian, because they aren't. Even though they have to say they are when taking standardized tests and such. It's all very complicated.
Easy there, tiger.
Please see my other response. I think that clarifies some things (hopefully).
I'm looking at it more as a societal problem, more than anything. And, as I said in that response, if your wife prefers to be called Asian, that is definitely what I would call her, no questions asked.
Race is a sensitive topic for me, being bi-racial (which is how I think of myself). I remember being in school, taking tests, and having to fill-in the oval next to which ethnicity I was. I filled-in the ovals next to black, and white. After turning-in the test, the teacher got up, came over to me, dropped it on the desk and told me to erase the 'white' oval. "But, my mom is white," I said. "I'm both." Didn't matter. To her (and society) I'm black.
This is all probably TMI, but I hope it helps explain my sensitivity to these matters.
Similarly, it's kind of offensive to immediately be pseudo-accused of "societal problems" for daring to notice that someone is Asian. People seem to be sitting on the edge of their seat just waiting to point fingers and claim such nonsense.
My kids are bi-racial as well (kind of obviously), so I know what you are describing.
I think, what you are kind of getting at with respect to Asians, is best illustrated in the old King of the Hill routine, where Kahn meets his new Texan neighbors, tells them his family is from Laos, and they reply with, "Are you Japanese, Chinese, or Ko-rean?"
I could go on at length about the mistreatment and stereotyping of Asians throughout the history of film, from Anna May Wong losing out on Asian roles to white actresses in yellow face, to the distinct lack of leading roles afforded Asian males. But none of that was the point.
We don't really know crap about Ruby at this point, beyond her being a female with Asiatic features who was observed crawling and screaming on the floor. I thought it was interesting that she portrays a similarly named character in an animated series, which I didn't even know existed, that has some familiar themes running through it.
How that got virtue-signaled into some pissing match about Asians and who can call themselves one is not at all what was intended or implied.
But let's put that to bed now.
Agreed. I'm sorry for launching into a diatribe about race.
I think where this discussion has gone shows how sensitive a topic race and the language we use about it is, especially right now. I would also like to think that we're supportive enough of one another to reserve judgment and talk things through before taking or giving offense.
In my experience, Asian-Americans I've met tend to just call themselves Asian while African-Americans don't just call themselves African. Misinterpretations can ensue. Misinterpretations can be clarified and then everyone's better for it.
Looks like the thread's in a good place now.
Looks like the thread's in a good place now.
Hi James,
Hate to say it, but this thread is an example of what this forum will become after Twin Peaks: the Return is over. Seen it before. 🙁
😉
- /< /\ /> -
Americans don't call themselves Europeans because our race is Caucasian, not European 😛
We say Asian because it's less offensive than 'yellow', which has a colonial background. Just like some people are offended by 'black'. (In French, amusingly, the PC word for Africans is 'Black' -- literally, the English word.) But nobody has any problems with the word 'white'. It's always amusing. I guess what matters is how people around you feel about the words.
Re: Steven, I'm also a big fan. The era of peak tv is also peak cartoon tv. So many good shows. (I'm not into gravity falls though. Never got it.) Adventure Time is fantastic -- my first episode was s06e01, and fitness so fucking weird, thinking about it I realize what I love about AT is that it's as groundbreaking and dreamy as Twin Peaks The Return. I can recommend many us and Japanese animated shows that are as obscure and thought provoking as TP, really. I'd have to be on my computer to compile a list, though.
I don't think Steven had any influence on the TP storyline though. In any way. Steven is way more down to earth, despite the alien stories.
Matthew, about your dual race-- ever watch Key & Peele? Great show! The first couple seasons are hilarious and their main source of humor is in having two biracial friends who feel neither white nor black, and feel a bit rejected by either culture. Very smart sketches. Makes me want to binge watch it again...
I found this thread in a google search and had to register to chime in. I'm Indian American and have a a lifetime of confusing identity issues to bring to the table.
First off I don't think it's wrong to point out that Ruby or Charlyne Yi is American. Growing up in the eighties I didn't even come to grasp the notion that I was American, despite being born in America and an American citizen, until I was in high school. I absolutely grew up believing I was a foreigner, and I was very much treated as one. Even to this day I will encounter people who assume I am a foreigner and comment on how good my English is (I speak with a very non distinct American accent). This has become less frequent over the years but someone calling an Asian-American "Asian" could very well not be recognizing someone as "American" (not that I think that was happening in this thread)
But it's also fine to point out that she's of Asian descent, something that very much played into my experience watching the scene. So much of the discussion of race in this country centers on black and white and the scene really evoked feelings of being unrecognized and unrepresented.
I found this thread in a google search and had to register to chime in. I'm Indian American and have a a lifetime of confusing identity issues to bring to the table.
First off I don't think it's wrong to point out that Ruby or Charlyne Yi is American. Growing up in the eighties I didn't even come to grasp the notion that I was American, despite being born in America and an American citizen, until I was in high school. I absolutely grew up believing I was a foreigner, and I was very much treated as one. Even to this day I will encounter people who assume I am a foreigner and comment on how good my English is (I speak with a very non distinct American accent). This has become less frequent over the years but someone calling an Asian-American "Asian" could very well not be recognizing someone as "American" (not that I think that was happening in this thread)
But it's also fine to point out that she's of Asian descent, something that very much played into my experience watching the scene. So much of the discussion of race in this country centers on black and white and the scene really evoked feelings of being unrecognized and unrepresented.
Welcome to the forum 🙂
Ps - my phone's predictive text suggested I type in "welcome to the lodge" - maybe more fitting 😀
Thank you for registering and sharing your important perspective.
Lynch/Frost's perspectives on race and gender are never thoughtlessly stereotypical, but they are very iconographic and physical/visual. So if someone looks Asian, or African-American (I was a little perturbed by the portrayal of Jade early in the game, since people of color appear so seldom in the show, and here was an intelligent black woman--working as a hooker (legally of course, since it's Las Vegas) they are probably chosen for their visual appearance as well as their acting skill etc.
Likewise, it's probably likely that forums like this are dominated by Caucasians and we need to listen to viewpoints that call out speaking for others. We're usually good at doing that--too good--and good to hear from those who aren't in that group.
It's not wrong to point out that she is American or Asian, because she is both.
Matthew, about your dual race-- ever watch Key & Peele? Great show! The first couple seasons are hilarious and their main source of humor is in having two biracial friends who feel neither white nor black, and feel a bit rejected by either culture. Very smart sketches. Makes me want to binge watch it again...
Hi Rene-Gilles,
Yes! Key & Peele are hilarious. Now you've made me want to nice watch it again, as well.
In my experience (being from many multiple nationalities, it's in fact difficult for me to pinpoint my heritage outside my official capacity as British), IMO it's all very irrelevant and down to what YOU identify yourself as. In my experience at least. Labels are subjective. We are what we say we are, IMO. Who's to say otherwise?
I may have been born and live in England, but am far from proud to be English. From my own life experiences, I'm British and European and proud of that, and proud also of my grandparents who came to this small island as asylum seekers. Had they not, I'd not have existed. I'm not proud to be English, however, due to the connotations it currenly has, at least in my experience, so I don't refer to myself as such. British, yes. European, certainly. Not English, however.
Not sure why I'm pitching in. Just sharing viewpoint. Love and respect to all, no matter their viewpoint on the matter, I think is what I'm trying to say 🙂
It's clear that everyone in this forum has the utmost respect for everyone, so any misunderstanding I think is purely due to miscommunication. This really is the most civil and forward thinking forum I've ever been privy to post on!
Lynch/Frost's perspectives on race and gender are never thoughtlessly stereotypical, but they are very iconographic and physical/visual. So if someone looks Asian, or African-American (I was a little perturbed by the portrayal of Jade early in the game, since people of color appear so seldom in the show, and here was an intelligent black woman--working as a hooker (legally of course, since it's Las Vegas) they are probably chosen for their visual appearance as well as their acting skill etc.
Likewise, it's probably likely that forums like this are dominated by Caucasians and we need to listen to viewpoints that call out speaking for others. We're usually good at doing that--too good--and good to hear from those who aren't in that group.
Thanks for the welcome, everyone.
Diversity in media is a difficult subject for me because I appreciate so much film and television that isn't diverse at all, and David Lynch and Twin Peaks is no exception.
I am grateful for Hawk, and very glad he's had a big role in the current season. I wonder if his role would have been as big if Harry/Ontkean had been able to return, I also wonder if he couldn't have had an even bigger role in the absence of Harry. I enjoy Robert Forester but Frank has often felt like a ham fisted stand-in for Harry, and it would have been cool to see Hawk as Sheriff. But I say that with the caveat that I don't know how this story will end and this is Frost and Lynch's story to do with as they please.
I had a similar reaction to Jade. I'm not inclined to react negatively to the character by herself, but she's been one of only a small number of woman of color in this season or the series as a whole. I've seen people site her as a good example of diversity in the show, and I'll just say that I wouldn't do that. Other than that, there's Naido, who may not be human, a couple of Roadhouse characters, and now Ruby.
As a fleeting character that we'll likely never see again, I had a lot of appreciation for her appearance. I'm not sure if the casting of an Asian actress to play this role was specific but for it me it felt like the first time Lynch has ever recognized some of the pain of being a minority in American society, which has been otherwise never been touched upon in his work, at least not that I can recall. Not even with Hawk do I recall Lynch ever constructing a scene that had such a strong sense of emotional empathy for a minority character.
Lynch will likely never make very diverse films. Hell we may be about to see the final three hours of cinematic work of his career (I hope not). But if that's the case I'm glad this scene came into existence before it's all over. Ultimately the question of diversity has to turn to lead roles and Lynch won't be the one to address that.
Fire walk with 
