Around the dinner table, the conversation was lively. Thank you but for now, the forum has been archived.
I don't think twenty five years have passed for the Dale Cooper who is now living Dougie Jones' life. Time doesn't work the same inside the Lodges as it does in our world. If it did, Dale would have dehydrated then starved to death in short order. Coop has been through a lot of strangeness but I don't believe a lot of time has passed for him. Much like how Major Briggs remained in his 40s while a couple decades passed outside the Lodges. Because of this, I believe Dale/Dougie is younger, healthier, and stronger than Mr. C whose human body is approximately twenty-five years older.
He hasn't been through nearly as much wear and tear (physically or emotionally) as anyone outside the Lodges has been through these past couple decades, I don't believe, and this will make him well-suited to do the things he needs to do when the time comes. He's getting ready. He's making friends and allies. I believe the subconscious Dale Cooper is already at work even though nobody else in the world can see it yet, not even Dougie-Coop himself.
I wondered about that too. It seems like that place is just a timeless void. Or an eternal now. I doubt that Cooper has any sense of being in there for 25 years. The scene where he brought Ike down shows his responses are intact and strong.
Not sure what Mike means when he asks if this is future or past.
Yes, but he still physically ages as his skin is wrinkled. Obviously Kyle MacLachlan has aged; However in Agent Cooper's dream from the very beginning of season 1, when he dreams he's 25 years in the future, they (lynch and co) made the point to add fake wrinkles and grayed hair to purposely show that he has aged in the lodge. So this is sort of a contradiction. His face has aged but his body has not? How can this be?
Another thing worth pondering is how long the Evil Cooper has existed. Did Evil Cooper just suddenly come into existence when Good Cooper entered the Black Lodge?
But I also like the idea that the Good Cooper and Evil Cooper are the two halves of the Real Cooper. I like the idea that the two need to come together to make the Real Cooper again.
If the end of the The Return just ends up being a battle between Good and Evil Coopers, that would be disappointing for me. It would be too much like a comic book good vs evil scenario. Too simplistic. I find it more exciting to think that the Real Cooper is made up of both good and evil.
We've all done bad things. I've driven over a few pheasants without feeling too bad about it. Stupid animals, they run out right in front of you. How big a leap is it from that to running over a human? Maybe all it takes is to feel no connection between yourself and other humans. Easily achieved if you experience enough nastiness from other humans. A shocking thought, I know, but we all have this potential for darkness within each of us.
Hawk said that when you enter the Black Lodge, you encounter your "shadow self". To me, this implies that it is a part of yourself that already exists, but was hidden and is now being revealed to you, rather than being an opposite.
To bring this back round to your original point, it could be argued that Cooper has not been in the Black Lodge for 25 years because he has been out in the "real world" being evil. He's the real Cooper, just minus the good stuff. It's still Cooper, it's just who he is without the good things to override the bad things.
It's worth considering that Hawk said that if you encounter your shadow self with imperfect courage, it will utterly destroy your soul. This raises the question of whether the Good Cooper even exists at all anymore. In that sense, we might have all been missing the obvious. We may never get the old Cooper back because Evil Cooper is the old Cooper with his good part destroyed by the Black Lodge. The whole Good Cooper stuff we saw in the Black Lodge at the beginning of The Return could have been Evil Cooper remembering his time in there or imagining it.
Another thing worth pondering is how long the Evil Cooper has existed. Did Evil Cooper just suddenly come into existence when Good Cooper entered the Black Lodge?
But I also like the idea that the Good Cooper and Evil Cooper are the two halves of the Real Cooper. I like the idea that the two need to come together to make the Real Cooper again.
If the end of the The Return just ends up being a battle between Good and Evil Coopers, that would be disappointing for me. It would be too much like a comic book good vs evil scenario. Too simplistic. I find it more exciting to think that the Real Cooper is made up of both good and evil.
We've all done bad things. I've driven over a few pheasants without feeling too bad about it. Stupid animals, they run out right in front of you. How big a leap is it from that to running over a human? Maybe all it takes is to feel no connection between yourself and other humans. Easily achieved if you experience enough nastiness from other humans. A shocking thought, I know, but we all have this potential for darkness within each of us.
Hawk said that when you enter the Black Lodge, you encounter your "shadow self". To me, this implies that it is a part of yourself that already exists, but was hidden and is now being revealed to you, rather than being an opposite.
To bring this back round to your original point, it could be argued that Cooper has not been in the Black Lodge for 25 years because he has been out in the "real world" being evil. He's the real Cooper, just minus the good stuff. It's still Cooper, it's just who he is without the good things to override the bad things.
It's worth considering that Hawk said that if you encounter your shadow self with imperfect courage, it will utterly destroy your soul. This raises the question of whether the Good Cooper even exists at all anymore. In that sense, we might have all been missing the obvious. We may never get the old Cooper back because Evil Cooper is the old Cooper with his good part destroyed by the Black Lodge. The whole Good Cooper stuff we saw in the Black Lodge at the beginning of The Return could have been Evil Cooper remembering his time in there or imagining it.
Possible. But then why were Mike and the other lodge players so intent to swap the one for the other? For some reason, they want bad coop back, but if it had worked out better, who would they have been sending back to our world? The good one, the original. Mike and the arm hadn't planned on the Dougie angle.
Hawk did say that, though, so I know what you mean. At the end of Season 2, when Bob said no to Windom Earle and created the doppelganger of Coop, Bob said to good Coop, "You go." Go where? Bob didn't simply take over the soul of the Dale Cooper standing right next to him, as Windom Earle mistakenly thought he could do. He had to create a copy. I am not sure that copy is Dale' s shadow self--it's an alien version.
I also don't see what powers Dale has in the Red Room or lodge or wherever he was all that time. Confront shadow self--how?
Hawk may end up there. Early in the series we see him walking toward the Red curtains at Glastonbury Grove while talking to log lady on his cell. He tells her that something is supposed to happen there tonight. I believe that is a scene in the future, shown before it's time. Hawk may be the key to bringing good coop back. With all his goodness intact, I hope.
I just thought of something else, though. Didn't Dale agree to sacrifice himself for Annie? I don't remember it exactly. Things moved so fast at the cliffhanger of Season 2 that the meaning of his sacrifice was lost on me. Now that is scary. Hmmmm....
Although they did show Cooper with wrinkles and grey hair in the original series, they made a point to show him without wrinkles and grey hair in THIS series. Dougie-Coop looks like a Cooper who has possessed The One Ring for the past 25 years. If you put Dougie-Coop beside Mr. C and show them to strangers the reaction is less likely to be "Oh, twins," than to be, "They look like they could be related; is one the older brother of the other?" They don't even look the same age, and that has to be intentional.
I just thought of something else, though. Didn't Dale agree to sacrifice himself for Annie? I don't remember it exactly. Things moved so fast at the cliffhanger of Season 2 that the meaning of his sacrifice was lost on me. Now that is scary. Hmmmm....
He did, but as I understand it, Windom Earle had no right or power to make such a request of him, and that led to Earle's demise. Whether it had/has any lasting effect on Dale, I'm not sure.
Personally I doubt that we're headed for a merger of good and evil Coops. For one thing, I think it's hard to argue against the idea that original Cooper was firmly on the side of good and did not possess 'grey' morality. For another thing, Lynch has always seemed more interested in the struggle between good and evil.
I don't think his doppelgänger existed before he entered the BL, much like your reflection doesn't exist until you look in the mirror. Then again, if the Lodges are truly timeless, then perhaps entering means you were always there.
I don't think twenty five years have passed for the Dale Cooper who is now living Dougie Jones' life. Time doesn't work the same inside the Lodges as it does in our world. If it did, Dale would have dehydrated then starved to death in short order. Coop has been through a lot of strangeness but I don't believe a lot of time has passed for him. Much like how Major Briggs remained in his 40s while a couple decades passed outside the Lodges. Because of this, I believe Dale/Dougie is younger, healthier, and stronger than Mr. C whose human body is approximately twenty-five years older.
He hasn't been through nearly as much wear and tear (physically or emotionally) as anyone outside the Lodges has been through these past couple decades, I don't believe, and this will make him well-suited to do the things he needs to do when the time comes. He's getting ready. He's making friends and allies. I believe the subconscious Dale Cooper is already at work even though nobody else in the world can see it yet, not even Dougie-Coop himself.
Dougie Coop most definitely can fight like a cobra. But who's to say old men can't fight the young and beat em to tarnation? Just look at Battlin Bud Mullins.
Fire walk with 
