The Dutchman's  

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(@iban-manzano)
Lodger

"He was at a place called The Dutchman's, but it's not a real place" says Ray about Phillip Jeffries

Any suggestion about what it means?

Quote
Posted : 07/08/2017 8:23 am
(@jeffery_m_thompson)
Roadhouse Regular

In the thread on Where is Phillips Jefferies some speculation and odd google searches were posted, I wonder if
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Dutchman%27s_Gold_Mine

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Posted : 07/08/2017 8:26 am
(@fumiko)
Roadhouse Regular

I can't shake the feeling that we've heard or seen something referred to as the Dutchman somewhere in the series past.  Tried searching a few online scripts and got nothing.  Zilch.  Yet when he first said it, the term sounded familiar.  

FWIW Google searches show Laura's house is a Dutch colonial. 

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Posted : 08/08/2017 7:21 am
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron

An aside: Thomas Eckhardt (David Warner), in season 2, is originally supposed to be from South Africa and he has a couple of lines of dialogue in Afrikaans, which developed from Dutch. "Dutchman" used to be the most common derogatory term English-speaking South African used to refer to Afrikaans-speaking South Africans.  

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Posted : 08/08/2017 7:37 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

It's also used as a term for someone from the Netherlands, although my Sister in Law, from there, says it's not generally regarded as polite, since the term "Dutch" is derived from "Deutsch", which they certainly are not.

As an aside, she also said it's considered impolite, or at best, ignorant (in an innocent sense) to refer to the Netherlands as "Holland".

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 08/08/2017 7:43 am
(@fumiko)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: pynchjan

An aside: Thomas Eckhardt (David Warner), in season 2, is originally supposed to be from South Africa and he has a couple of lines of dialogue in Afrikaans, which developed from Dutch. "Dutchman" used to be the most common derogatory term English-speaking South African used to refer to Afrikaans-speaking South Africans.  

I feel compelled to point out that we were ALSO treated to several episodes worth of performances during season 2 from actor James Booth, who is best known as "Private Hook" in the war epic "Zulu". 

 

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Posted : 08/08/2017 11:02 am
(@devaneyfan)
Roadhouse Regular

Sounds like a good name for a convenience store.

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Posted : 08/08/2017 11:13 am
ella liked
(@fumiko)
Roadhouse Regular

So, here's a weird take on this "Dutchman" thing.  But first, let me go down a different rabbit hole. 

 

- Ray tells DoppleCoop he got the coordinates from "Betty", who is supposedly Hastings beautiful secretary.  Way back in Ep. 1, Ray was dilligently working that "lead" for BadCoop, presumably under Jeffries' direction. 

 

- DoppleCoop thought it was "funny" that Hastings secretary would only give the coordinates to Ray. 

- Later we hear Hasting's confessional to Tammy in which he describes Ruth as the one who had the coordinates.  He makes no mention of Betty ever having them, and says that Ruth wrote them "on her hand" so they wouldn't forget.   Side note, the body they found (Ruth) had the coordinates written on her arm, rather than her hand.  Not sure if that matters? Then there's the coordinates that Diane saw in the photo of the arm, which ostensibly lead back to Twin Peaks. 

- Fast forward to this week's episode and a dying Ray, after noting how his coordinates could not be trusted, reaches into his pocket for a written version. A version he obtained from "Betty".  He gives these to Dopplecoop.  Whether Dopplecoop trusts them or not is still in question, but he has them nonetheless. 

All I can discern from that is that Jeffries instructed Ray to troll Dopplecoop about these important coordinates, supposedly obtained from "Betty".  I'm not sure they ever even met. Though Betty is dead now (car explosion, mentioned by Detective Mackley).  One wonders where the coordinates Ray wrote down lead? 

 

Now to "the Dutchman". 

 

There's something else beyond the Betty/Ruth and Hand/Arm things in Hasting's confessional that is odd.  Observe this sentence: 

 

"We went to the place....a military database." 

What?  How can a "database" be a place?  Did he misspeak under durress?  Did he mean a military base?  Or is there a database at play here?  Is this database/place "The Dutchman"?  

Just doing stream-of-consciousness, the first word that comes to mind for me when someone says "Dutchman" is "flying".  And we know the FBI's plane has had some weird window glitching.  And, of course, you've heard me suggest before that it may be interesting if "Jeffries" were in fact "Tammy", who has been on said plane.  But all of that is a pretty big mountain to climb. 

 

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Posted : 08/08/2017 11:13 am
(@meaxylon)
Dweller

Regarding Dutchman / flying ship reference: wasn't there a quote from someone in the cast (Kyle?) that Lynch was working on some sort of strange construction - a ship or vessel for one of the characters? I sort of assumed it could have been what we saw when Cooper met Naido and American girl. But maybe not?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 11:30 am
ella liked
(@badalamenti-fan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: kdawg68

So, here's a weird take on this "Dutchman" thing.  But first, let me go down a different rabbit hole. 

 

- Ray tells DoppleCoop he got the coordinates from "Betty", who is supposedly Hastings beautiful secretary.  Way back in Ep. 1, Ray was dilligently working that "lead" for BadCoop, presumably under Jeffries' direction. 

 

- DoppleCoop thought it was "funny" that Hastings secretary would only give the coordinates to Ray. 

- Later we hear Hasting's confessional to Tammy in which he describes Ruth as the one who had the coordinates.  He makes no mention of Betty ever having them, and says that Ruth wrote them "on her hand" so they wouldn't forget.   Side note, the body they found (Ruth) had the coordinates written on her arm, rather than her hand.  Not sure if that matters? Then there's the coordinates that Diane saw in the photo of the arm, which ostensibly lead back to Twin Peaks. 

- Fast forward to this week's episode and a dying Ray, after noting how his coordinates could not be trusted, reaches into his pocket for a written version. A version he obtained from "Betty".  He gives these to Dopplecoop.  Whether Dopplecoop trusts them or not is still in question, but he has them nonetheless. 

All I can discern from that is that Jeffries instructed Ray to troll Dopplecoop about these important coordinates, supposedly obtained from "Betty".  I'm not sure they ever even met. Though Betty is dead now (car explosion, mentioned by Detective Mackley).  One wonders where the coordinates Ray wrote down lead? 

 

Now to "the Dutchman". 

 

There's something else beyond the Betty/Ruth and Hand/Arm things in Hasting's confessional that is odd.  Observe this sentence: 

 

"We went to the place....a military database." 

What?  How can a "database" be a place?  Did he misspeak under durress?  Did he mean a military base?  Or is there a database at play here?  Is this database/place "The Dutchman"?  

Just doing stream-of-consciousness, the first word that comes to mind for me when someone says "Dutchman" is "flying".  And we know the FBI's plane has had some weird window glitching.  And, of course, you've heard me suggest before that it may be interesting if "Jeffries" were in fact "Tammy", who has been on said plane.  But all of that is a pretty big mountain to climb. 

 

Interesting point re: Flying Dutchmen... 

So, in Richard Wagner's opera of the same name, Der fliegende Holländer , the Dutchmen in question are the crew of a "ghost ship... " IIRC, that image derives from a more general literary/artistic trope of the Narrenschiff, or "Ship of Fools,"

Michel Foucault's discussion of the Narrenschiff in Madness and Civilization locates it as an actual practice in early modern Europe, whereby mentally ill people were quarantined on a ship, and, well...  sent out of town.

I'd love the idea of this passing reference being invested with so much potential meaning re: madness, souls, etc. 

After all, one viable path to the end here for Lynch would involve revealing something more to us about whether the Red Room is a psychoanalytical phenomenon-- a metaphor-- or an eschatological one, that is, an earnest/literal representation of what lies beyond "this mortal coil..."  And, with that, an indication of the ultimate fate of the mortal world, of good and evil, etc.

We'll see!

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Posted : 08/08/2017 3:36 pm
(@ranmacmh)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Badalamenti Fan
Posted by: kdawg68

So, here's a weird take on this "Dutchman" thing.  But first, let me go down a different rabbit hole. 

 

- Ray tells DoppleCoop he got the coordinates from "Betty", who is supposedly Hastings beautiful secretary.  Way back in Ep. 1, Ray was dilligently working that "lead" for BadCoop, presumably under Jeffries' direction. 

 

- DoppleCoop thought it was "funny" that Hastings secretary would only give the coordinates to Ray. 

- Later we hear Hasting's confessional to Tammy in which he describes Ruth as the one who had the coordinates.  He makes no mention of Betty ever having them, and says that Ruth wrote them "on her hand" so they wouldn't forget.   Side note, the body they found (Ruth) had the coordinates written on her arm, rather than her hand.  Not sure if that matters? Then there's the coordinates that Diane saw in the photo of the arm, which ostensibly lead back to Twin Peaks. 

- Fast forward to this week's episode and a dying Ray, after noting how his coordinates could not be trusted, reaches into his pocket for a written version. A version he obtained from "Betty".  He gives these to Dopplecoop.  Whether Dopplecoop trusts them or not is still in question, but he has them nonetheless. 

All I can discern from that is that Jeffries instructed Ray to troll Dopplecoop about these important coordinates, supposedly obtained from "Betty".  I'm not sure they ever even met. Though Betty is dead now (car explosion, mentioned by Detective Mackley).  One wonders where the coordinates Ray wrote down lead? 

 

Now to "the Dutchman". 

 

There's something else beyond the Betty/Ruth and Hand/Arm things in Hasting's confessional that is odd.  Observe this sentence: 

 

"We went to the place....a military database." 

What?  How can a "database" be a place?  Did he misspeak under durress?  Did he mean a military base?  Or is there a database at play here?  Is this database/place "The Dutchman"?  

Just doing stream-of-consciousness, the first word that comes to mind for me when someone says "Dutchman" is "flying".  And we know the FBI's plane has had some weird window glitching.  And, of course, you've heard me suggest before that it may be interesting if "Jeffries" were in fact "Tammy", who has been on said plane.  But all of that is a pretty big mountain to climb. 

 

Interesting point re: Flying Dutchmen... 

So, in Richard Wagner's opera of the same name, Der fliegende Holländer , the Dutchmen in question are the crew of a "ghost ship... " IIRC, that image derives from a more general literary/artistic trope of the Narrenschiff, or "Ship of Fools,"

Michel Foucault's discussion of the Narrenschiff in Madness and Civilization locates it as an actual practice in early modern Europe, whereby mentally ill people were quarantined on a ship, and, well...  sent out of town.

I'd love the idea of this passing reference being invested with so much potential meaning re: madness, souls, etc. 

After all, one viable path to the end here for Lynch would involve revealing something more to us about whether the Red Room is a psychoanalytical phenomenon-- a metaphor-- or an eschatological one, that is, an earnest/literal representation of what lies beyond "this mortal coil..."  And, with that, an indication of the ultimate fate of the mortal world, of good and evil, etc.

We'll see!

I seriously love this direction.  A Lynch move would be to play it as both and let the fans argue about it.

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Posted : 08/08/2017 11:35 pm
(@100monkeys)
Dweller
Posted by: kdawg68

So, here's a weird take on this "Dutchman" thing.  But first, let me go down a different rabbit hole. 

 

- Ray tells DoppleCoop he got the coordinates from "Betty", who is supposedly Hastings beautiful secretary.  Way back in Ep. 1, Ray was dilligently working that "lead" for BadCoop, presumably under Jeffries' direction. 

 

- DoppleCoop thought it was "funny" that Hastings secretary would only give the coordinates to Ray. 

- Later we hear Hasting's confessional to Tammy in which he describes Ruth as the one who had the coordinates.  He makes no mention of Betty ever having them, and says that Ruth wrote them "on her hand" so they wouldn't forget.   Side note, the body they found (Ruth) had the coordinates written on her arm, rather than her hand.  Not sure if that matters? Then there's the coordinates that Diane saw in the photo of the arm, which ostensibly lead back to Twin Peaks. 

- Fast forward to this week's episode and a dying Ray, after noting how his coordinates could not be trusted, reaches into his pocket for a written version. A version he obtained from "Betty".  He gives these to Dopplecoop.  Whether Dopplecoop trusts them or not is still in question, but he has them nonetheless. 

All I can discern from that is that Jeffries instructed Ray to troll Dopplecoop about these important coordinates, supposedly obtained from "Betty".  I'm not sure they ever even met. Though Betty is dead now (car explosion, mentioned by Detective Mackley).  One wonders where the coordinates Ray wrote down lead? 

 

Now to "the Dutchman". 

 

There's something else beyond the Betty/Ruth and Hand/Arm things in Hasting's confessional that is odd.  Observe this sentence: 

 

"We went to the place....a military database." 

What?  How can a "database" be a place?  Did he misspeak under durress?  Did he mean a military base?  Or is there a database at play here?  Is this database/place "The Dutchman"?  

Just doing stream-of-consciousness, the first word that comes to mind for me when someone says "Dutchman" is "flying".  And we know the FBI's plane has had some weird window glitching.  And, of course, you've heard me suggest before that it may be interesting if "Jeffries" were in fact "Tammy", who has been on said plane.  But all of that is a pretty big mountain to climb. 

 

"Side note, the body they found (Ruth) had the coordinates written on her arm, rather than her hand.  Not sure if that matters?"

I think they changed it  to her "arm" as this is a theme in the show. (even when there is no direct link)

On "going to a  military database"  could this be similar like "going to google" on your pc. A place on the interwebs. I mean online and  not visiting the actual Google office? / military database

So it's not "actually a place" as  Ray said.

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Posted : 09/08/2017 1:53 pm
(@nikolaj_nielsen)
RR Diner Patron

A website is definitely a place. I have this theory that Jeffries found one of the 7 portals I'm Buenos Aires, no longer has a physical body and now communicates via the weird modem in Buenos Aires. The modem also turned into a golden ball similar to others we have seen that usually represents a spirit. This could mean, that Jeffries spirit now exists in a purely digital/electronic form and could therefore reside on the internet. 

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Posted : 09/08/2017 5:43 pm
(@ame-solitaire)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Nikolaj Nielsen

A website is definitely a place. I have this theory that Jeffries found one of the 7 portals I'm Buenos Aires, no longer has a physical body and now communicates via the weird modem in Buenos Aires. The modem also turned into a golden ball similar to others we have seen that usually represents a spirit. This could mean, that Jeffries spirit now exists in a purely digital/electronic form and could therefore reside on the internet. 

I had that exact same thought many episodes ago. Since lodge entities travel through electricity, it's a small step to consider they can use the inter web. Jeffery's voice is completely different than the one David Bowie had in FWWM, the voice we hear now has an obvious digital treatment to it. When Bad Coop down loaded the prison files/blue prints, he seemed to memorize them, he then used the prison phone to disrupt the alarm system, he looked like he was pretty comfortable with that kind of hacking...

«That's the kind of girl to make you wish you spoke a little French».
- Gordon Cole.

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Posted : 09/08/2017 6:09 pm
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Ibán Manzano

"He was at a place called The Dutchman's, but it's not a real place" says Ray about Phillip Jeffries

Any suggestion about what it means?

Hi Iban,

It means:

"Shoot me in the head, I'm am prepare-ed to die!"  😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

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Posted : 09/08/2017 6:19 pm
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