The red cup  

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(@teo-peaks)
RR Diner Patron

The red cup being thrown on the ground was very similar to a scene in INLAND EMPIRE.

Lynch throw bits and pieces of his earlier films everywhere.

Would The Return be Lynch's Great Work?

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Posted : 18/07/2017 8:33 am
(@teo-peaks)
RR Diner Patron

INLAND EMPIRE

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Posted : 18/07/2017 10:24 am
(@teo-peaks)
RR Diner Patron

Twin Peaks

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Posted : 18/07/2017 10:24 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

Also the 'watch' in the deleted scenes from Inland Empire and the darkened room('mother' says that watch you bought....cant even tell time..)....its how you tell time, the 'periodization', how it changes when 'time comes back around on itself', which requires an intervention that changes time itself as history and present.  Lucy gave the clue here(also with the thermostat), she is very intelligent: while Dougie and Chad are immersed in 'nature', they 'enjoy this beautiful day', Lucy and Andy intervene, make time stop, change 'nature'/'state'/government/law, its not guaranteed; which is why she knew to watch Chad, that the 'beuatiful day' thing was a cover for his intervention.....he thinks she is stupid that she will 'just enjoy this beautiful day'.....

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Posted : 18/07/2017 10:52 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

Here's what I have on the red cup so far, from the 'Becky' thread, Steven and Beckys interventions lead to the abandoning of the red cup, the desire from with the relationship drinks:

 

Throwing out the red cup is end of their mutual desire for one another, the 'gold' enjoyment(cocaine, promiscuity, etc.) took over at the expense of their private relations.  My first thought was that Becky, because of her habit, cheated on him for someone with more money and drugs, maybe Red(who smirked as he said, he 'really liked the town', after telling Richard he is already in with his lady friend, sending Richard later into that crying to rage scene in the truck) or Jean Michel.  I am saying this because Becky seemed to place excessive importance on enjoyment(gold) rather than desire of Steven(red), drugs and money mostly, and wouldn't respond to Steven's advances until they got vulgar(something anyone can offer); showing excessive enjoyment in drugs and sex as priority.  Thus the  failure of Steven(doesnt even know how to fill out the form, although he seemed genuinely confused, as if he really tried), leads Becky easily towards the number one need of finding drugs and money somewhere else, dont really think Steven alone without money or drugs would stop her from going elsewhere.  Steven as something like a different Bobby, one without the guidance of the major, cannot see that something is wrong with whats going on, gets caught where he shouldn't be, etc..  Also good to remember that they are married....maybe a clash with Steven and Red/Jean Michel down the line?....

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Posted : 18/07/2017 10:54 am
(@teo-peaks)
RR Diner Patron

I shall add that in both cases, the cups are thrown and land on the ground in the correct position.

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Posted : 18/07/2017 11:41 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective

Prior to the release of the Return I, along with others I'm quite sure, predicted that this would be Lynch's magnum opus. What I did not predict, however, is how much he would reference his own work and the work of others (Kubrick, Hopper, etc.). It's quite a special gift that he has given to his fans. Go raibh maith agat! 

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Posted : 18/07/2017 11:52 am
wbor and Teo Peaks liked
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

After thinking more about this red cup, I now think it means something in addition to the end/death of proper desire between Becky and Steven.   Something like desire that remains upright/persisting, as the cup is violently thrown in the mud, even after relations are dead and the window is broken(end to proper desire).  Something like immortal desire for accumulation/profit/enjoyment that persists after the relations are finished, which is why Steven was seeking violent retribution against Becky, turning into Leo, etc., stone faced criminal, violent, etc.  

This connects with Richard as well, because the color red was used as his 'robot teddy bear's eyes'(which he drove over when approaching Sylvia's house), something like his 'arm' and light flashes/gaze(which tells cooper to be police, uncover the insurance fraud, etc.).  When he success in getting the valuables/profit, etc. from the safe, and dumps them on the table, a low pitch/slowed down sounding voice appears and red lights in his range of vision on the table of valuable start flashing in various locations wildly(lasts only a few seconds).  This is his covetous desire for accumulation of 'gold', etc. goes beyond all bounds, even if it 'breaks the window', means attacking his own household etc., much like Steven and Becky......

A clue to this was also Carl Rodd's song about the 'red river valley'(red being the link to the cup): he talks about red river valley, a past love, etc. and reminisces about it, but when the cup breaks the window he stops playing/desiring and says, what a nightmare.... He knew the proper way since he went from that brown scene with Mickey to seeing the gold flame coming out of the killed kid; cannot just keep pressing and think things are going to work out, turns into a nightmare, have to re-evaluate, change your 'viewpoint' then fix the world, problems, etc..  How to deal when in the brown(no gold, think of Jacobi, who also goes directly to gold/profit/enjoyment/valuable, in the 'brown' again, like Nadine and Jerry here, with the drugs and drape runners that crash into disaster, although Jerry seems to be fighting it more with his 'cannot trick me', brown is not alright, gold will not solve it, etc. in reference to Dougie situation).  Going for more gold  directly after the red cup of desire break out of the window and lands in the brown mud(becky's cup in the mud, both know she doesnt love Steven now), go beyond all bounds, turns into a nightmare(Richard-Sylvia-Ben, Steven-Becky) The character 'Red' is sort of an stable embodiment of this type of monstrous desire and knows how to utilize to harm his enemies, thus he knows magic.  Mr. C is obviously close to this as well......(anyone notice how Chantal's voice changed from first appearance in the hotel to this last one, she did not sound like texas-southern the first time, but something else, she is probably like those assassins from wild at heart who kill harry dean stanton, they are like actors playing roles, etc. in some sick game, hence that 'want me to mess with him' part)

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Posted : 21/07/2017 12:53 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

This excessive desire and drive to destroy a situation is not in-itself 'bad', just to be hidden from, etc., which will just make you stuck in a bad situation, forced to enjoy it, etc., unable to change it, change the frame/form of the whole situation, new law, etc.  Not confronting this necessary dimension of void/impossibility, that there are no atoms/nature/stars, and hiding from this excessive desire and drive to transform an impossible situation that rests on void, is the white cover for the black evil, the black evil which is ignored, since this excess is not dealt with in a proper way, bringing justice and fixing the entire situations frame/form/law, so that the same problems dont re-occur.  Thus characters like Red and Jean Michel proliferate, while Johnny is denied his excessive drive to stop these types (Richard) by a 'white' Sylvia who hides from the excess and how she secretly participates in it(revenging against Ben and torturing Johnny/Jesus who was trapped in and killed by a world, betrayed by all, both white and black, a world which he was denied the ability to change/fix, even though his whole life points to that moment).  Sylvia hides from this necessity of excess, thus cannot properly deal with it(cannot make him mad, then she herself tries to get Ben in the same way Ben got her, white becomes black, Mike takes garmanbozia from Bob after Laura's murder, even though he tried to cut off his arm, the cutting off is the hiding from whites necessary failure which demands excessive transformation).  Sylvia  instead tries to pretend that torturing her middle aged son is a normal family life, with robot teddy bear and cookies.  This is also the same reason why Becky and Shelly go over to characters like Red/Leo, etc.  I am actually starting to like Miriam somewhat more now, her excessive enjoyment about the pies represents how the old twin peaks failed with the death of Laura, and how people are hiding from it, it was killed by the vicious white-black dynamic that creates reciprocal destruction and traps people in the failing system of the old twin peaks, ties johnny in a chair, and allows no one to solve the problems, out of fear that someone will get hurt, well the entire situation needs to be destroyed/hurt, it is the source of more violence and brutality that needs to be forced into a successful law.  In other words, to save what was good about the old twin peaks(Miriam's pies, etc.) the entire situation has to be changed in its form/law.

The excessive drive to destroy a failing situation is not necessarily 'bad' and is even necessary to open up the freedom to change the entire situation, it is 'void' embodied in life, the complete disgust with an unjust situation and wanting to 'tear it up'(like how Bobby treated the evil community hiding from the Laura tragedy at Laura funeral).  This sort of excessive(gold) drive is the key to solve all of the problems, and must be properly dealt with, to hide from it means the true evil, the white cover for the black which gives black shelter, why the docile dougie pretending to be gambler/hedonist gives shelter to Mr. C/billionairs to treat the government as their private mafia/terror force, making the world their capitalist playground, killing and torturing/enslaving anyone who stands in their way, the world and state is their private property. Not going to excess of tearing this situation up, hiding from it because its 'bad' is completely wrong, a bad situation/frame will look bad and should be treated as such. 

How to deal with this excess properly?  Carl Rodd is the example here: after being in the 'brown' with Mickey and complaining about the government(frame/law, responsible for putting law and conditions of life), he looks to nature(background, how life is going naturally, etc.) with desire/red, calms down from the 'brown' and thinks about a good way to get out of it, enjoying the community, promoting dignified life, etc(red river song).  He then sees the kid get hit, and here is how he deals with the golden excess: the burning flame to change the situation, he sees the horror of how things are made by people(watch stop/controls/interacts with time/space, etc., and this interaction must be changed), how could such a mother and kid be killed, etc., its a nightmare, government/billionaires alliance is called 'damned', dont do anything but drain people, kill them, take for themselves, ruin the green(nature/law) and destroy the proper way to deal with the golden excess and the 'brown' which you hit when you see impossibility void; here gold should go to fixing the problems/injustice, it is the duty of thinking-speaking beings who have this power to change the frame to do something about it, etc., not hiding from this painful excess that upsets life....The golden shovel approach is a way of hiding form impossibility/void(no stars), desire fails, goes to the red room, infinite horror and pain mixed with crippling impotence, and it only leads back there.  To go back right into excess from being in the brown without solving the problems, like Richard in the truck, means a maddening downward spiral that ends in violence and barbarism, a spiral that characters like Mr. C and Red try to master with magic but only ends in one way, their death...(BOB tells Windom Earle, you cannot kill him, etc., always happens here, like the guy from lost highway who killed the mafia, headed for death, no way to get rid of tracking devices, have to fight to fix the problems, see the pain and deal with it, fight for justice, etc., also why Mr. C is hiding like the White, they are both hiding from treating pain as pain, bad as bad, hiding from void/impossibility, that this 'brown' will never go away, that 'she is gone')(or capitalism will end in barbarism/slavery to the robot teddy via digital internet network linked with AI and human body).

So we come to the weird conclusion that the 'bad' Richard has the chance to be a top good guy, while the 'good' James has the possibility to be the top bad guy(Up to down, down to up, Jacobi's shovels and how people profit from maintaining an unjust situation and government/state, the logic Dougie uncovered to expose the fraud).  Although Richard is a psychopath who deals with the 'brown' in Jacobis way, jumps to gold and becomes increasingly crazy, he does see that the entire situation is to blame(this was simple, just fix the problem, was that so hard, no need to tie up Johnny, etc.; the sheriff in these small towns are 90, stupid, etc., knows the town is rotten, but tragically he is still attached to this town, hiding from the fact its dead, which is why green is a color around him, doesnt want to see it as dead, wants revenge, etc......very much like Laura here, Laura's problem is Richard's problem).  James on the other hand completely avoids and hides from 'void/impossibility', everything is great here even though its given me 15 'motorcycle accidents', how about 'two ice cold colonials please'...... Where is the excess here, he must know that place is rotten unconsciously and is hiding it, what will he do to hide this when the tension explodes in his upcoming clash with Red or some other corrupted element in the town, maybe he will go over to Mr. C's side of things, hiding by enjoying pain instead of hiding by ignoring it(Sylvia), there are no stars James, something is burning.......

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Posted : 21/07/2017 3:01 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

The watch is nature, nature is the watch; Spice is the worms, the worms are the spice.....

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Posted : 21/07/2017 3:48 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

Nevertheless, I think Richard's future in the show will be Johnny, crucifixion by the world, ritual sacrifice which blames a 'boogieman'/terrorist which allows the corrupted world to continue in its slow decay and downward spiral without fixing the problems that kill both richard and linda(two birds with one stone, mutual destruction).  Not to defend Richard or claim that he doesn't need to be stopped; but showing the bitter and unimaginable tragedy of this situation will hopefully lead to a new 'spirit', Mua'dib....from Richard to Paul Mua'dib

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Posted : 21/07/2017 4:41 pm
(@myn0k)
Deputy

If course, it's possible that a cup just got thrown out of the window 😀

😉

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Posted : 21/07/2017 5:03 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Myn0k

If course, it's possible that a cup just got thrown out of the window 😀

😉

Yes this definitely happened, but in Lynch nothing is 'just what it seems', its an ingeniously intricate mystery, image, sound, symbolism everything......the recurrence of red here from Rodd's 'red river' song directly to the red cup, then the reappearance of red eyes of Richard's robot teddy bear/arm and his wild 'red' gaze over the table of the valuable, plus the fact that in general this was a 'gold' episode as shown by the rancho rosa screen at the beginning(thus cooper sex scene, 'brown' disgust, jacobi's shovel, etc.).  There are clues everywhere which connect, its a very terrifying and ridiculous world, twin peaks.........

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Posted : 21/07/2017 5:40 pm
(@myn0k)
Deputy
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
Posted by: Myn0k

If course, it's possible that a cup just got thrown out of the window 😀

😉

Yes this definitely happened, but in Lynch nothing is 'just what it seems', its an ingeniously intricate mystery, image, sound, symbolism everything......the recurrence of red here from Rodd's 'red river' song directly to the red cup, then the reappearance of red eyes of Richard's robot teddy bear/arm and his wild 'red' gaze over the table of the valuable, plus the fact that in general this was a 'gold' episode as shown by the rancho rosa screen at the beginning(thus cooper sex scene, 'brown' disgust, jacobi's shovel, etc.).  There are clues everywhere which connect, its a very terrifying and ridiculous world, twin peaks.........

I know, and I agree - I'm just messing around 🙂

Actually my first thought was that with a cup, you can "drink full". 

And descend. Sounds like those two have descended!

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Posted : 22/07/2017 3:08 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

I know, and I agree - I'm just messing around 🙂

Actually my first thought was that with a cup, you can "drink full". 

And descend. Sounds like those two have descended!

I like that, they drank from the well, the guaranteed/default 'white on the surface' of twin peaks, hit the same problems Laura and Cooper did 25 years ago, which have advanced more in those years......time they are descending........

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Posted : 22/07/2017 3:16 am
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