Sarah is not Judy or "the Mother"  

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(@woodsman)
Lodger
Posted by: Darren Burdock-Latter

'Mother' is only ever referred to in the purple room, and all we've ever seen or heard from it is banging on a door. 

I don't believe THAT mother is the same thing as the experiment. It could be, but there's no actual hard evidence that it is. 

Of course! Thank you. I couldn't remember a mention of that but you are right. 

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Posted : 06/09/2017 10:44 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

Agree with the OP.  Sarah has something with her but it ain't been shown to us what it is.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 06/09/2017 10:52 am
(@woodsman)
Lodger

I believe it was the frog/bug, which I further believe was carrying the gold Laura orb (per my other post, linked above). If Sarah is the frog bug girl, she can not be Judy/mother/experiment, which gave birth to those eggs and the BOB sphere.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 10:54 am
(@doktor_gruber)
Lodger
Posted by: Marty Thornley

Just my option, but I have a bit of a different take than what I have been reading...

I did not see anything in the series that implied that Sarah is Judy/Mother. This theory seems to be taking on its own life in articles and forums but I am still not buying it.

Consider that all we ever saw Sarah do was act depressed in her house and act in self defense against a trucker who was sexually aggressive towards her. Judy is described as an incredibly strong evil force. What did Sarah ever do that was evil?

The "Mother" is another thing to take another look at. For one, there is no mention at all of a mother within anything we saw or heard on screen. The entity that spat out the eggs and BOB sphere resembled "The Experiment" and "Experiment Model" but the word "mother" was created in reviews and forums by fans, right? Am I missing something within the context of the actual show that described it as a Mother?

My point is that fans have conflated The Experiment with Judy and with the word "mother" because it seemed to give birth to BOB and other evil. With the word mother attached, the obvious parallel was Laura's mother, Sarah. But I don't see anything at all within the show that draws that line. 

There was obviously something going on with Sarah but her actions are much more in line with depression, loss, and alcoholism to cover to all than with anything even close to behind inhabited by the ultimate evil force.

My only problem with what you are saying is that you consider Sarah's violence to the jerk in the bar as being normal "self defense".

Not even close in my opinion. She could have asked for help from the bartender or any number of bar patrons before ripping out his neck. Obviously more going on than depression.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:05 am
(@woodsman)
Lodger
Posted by: doktor_gruber
Posted by: Marty Thornley

Just my option, but I have a bit of a different take than what I have been reading...

I did not see anything in the series that implied that Sarah is Judy/Mother. This theory seems to be taking on its own life in articles and forums but I am still not buying it.

Consider that all we ever saw Sarah do was act depressed in her house and act in self defense against a trucker who was sexually aggressive towards her. Judy is described as an incredibly strong evil force. What did Sarah ever do that was evil?

The "Mother" is another thing to take another look at. For one, there is no mention at all of a mother within anything we saw or heard on screen. The entity that spat out the eggs and BOB sphere resembled "The Experiment" and "Experiment Model" but the word "mother" was created in reviews and forums by fans, right? Am I missing something within the context of the actual show that described it as a Mother?

My point is that fans have conflated The Experiment with Judy and with the word "mother" because it seemed to give birth to BOB and other evil. With the word mother attached, the obvious parallel was Laura's mother, Sarah. But I don't see anything at all within the show that draws that line. 

There was obviously something going on with Sarah but her actions are much more in line with depression, loss, and alcoholism to cover to all than with anything even close to behind inhabited by the ultimate evil force.

My only problem with what you are saying is that you consider Sarah's violence to the jerk in the bar as being normal "self defense".

Not even close in my opinion. She could have asked for help from the bartender or any number of bar patrons before ripping out his neck. Obviously more going on than depression.

Oh I wasn't saying it is normal in any way. See my other thoughts above. She is clearly hiding something inside her. I just see it as tortured and vengeful, but not a sign of ultimate evil.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:08 am
(@tero)
Lodger

I think it started when a fan synced the videos of the glass box events with the purple room events, making a semi-credible connection between the experiment and the stated "mother" making those sounds.

Then, the thingies inside Sarah and that violent attack would also connect Sarah to the creatures. Sarah was also the "mother" of a central character which gave fuel to this idea.

Mike claimed the tattoo he removed said "MOM" which kinda connects too if the "Mother" was the supreme evil he wanted to remove himself from.

Also, some felt the black figure on Mr C.'s playing card represented the Experiment creatures. Hawk's "you don't want to know about that" seems to affirm it's the most bad-ass evil thing there can possibly be.

So, it's inference. But in hindsight I guess there's now no absolute confirmation of these ideas and the chain of inferences is a bit flimsy, especially the Sarah bit, and I don't think all of the above can be true at the same time. It's not a god damn bad story theory though? But maybe the grey creatures can be connected/are close to Judy, but not necessarily Judy, after all they have been credited as Experiments.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:18 am
(@douglas_b)
Lodger

I am somewhere in between. I don't think any "one" person could or can be Judy/Jowday in that it's much more of a supernatural force. BOB appears to be it's spawn, and he also can't actually "be" anyone on his own. But he clearly can influence and even take control of people. So Sarah to me is more like under the influence of, or possessed by Judy. When that started happening it's hard to say, but sleeping for years next to Leland/BOB can't be good for you!

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:34 am
(@death-bag)
RR Diner Patron

Let us not for get "I am in the Black Lodge with Dale Cooper, I am waiting for you"

The import scene for this  is when Sara goes batshit crazy and starts breakfast MG and stabbing the picture of Laura

(which remarkably doesn't tear or rip for being a 25yo 8 x 10)

Whoever is in Sara certainly wanted her or needed Laura back at the house 

Why is unclear, but it certainly should have something to do with "Laura is one"and/or Dream Child  hints to Laura's larger importance 

. . . we're not gonna talk about Judy . .

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:42 am
(@andrew_glasson)
RR Diner Patron

What about the theory of 2 birds one stone.  Leland is possessed by Bob.  Sarah is possessed by Judy.  Bob got inside Leland when he was a boy and the frog moth got inside Sarah when she was in New Mexico.  One stone is Laura.  Jefferies combined to images of the owl figure with the golden orb inside.  2 birds could mean Bob/Judy (Leland/Sarah, father/mother) with one stone (golden orb/Laura).  You could put the psychoanalytical spin on it and say you need to kill your parents to be free.  Again this also works with the duality in Twin Peaks.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 11:51 am
(@badalamenti-fan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: SamXTherapy

Agree with the OP.  Sarah has something with her but it ain't been shown to us what it is.

Nor will it ever be shown--or known-- to us.  Which leads me to conclude that debates based on perceived "evidence" are moot. 

What's more interesting, IMO, is asking questions about how we might read Sarah Palmer poetically. 

In the original series and FWWM, the metaphor of "possession" helped both the characters in the narrative (including Laura)  and the viewing audience cope with the unspeakable horror of Laura's suffering.

In the new series, the metaphor is extended in scope to cover the nuclear family, not merely the abuser and victim.  Sarah is very loosely implicated as complicit-- to the extent that she did not/could not intervene-- but, more fundamentally, I think we see her portrayed in a sympathetic light. 

Those who read Sarah's stabbing Laura's picture as some sort of malevolent act, might consider that she's suffered a fate arguably as horrible as Laura's.  It struck me that Sarah's exit from the stage, so to speak, arrives at the nadir of her suffering, the point at which she completely  unravels. Grace Zibriskie's performance remains unforgettable, and Sarah  remains, for me, the most compelling character in the Twin Peaks universe (after Laura, of course).

Ultimately, I think the debate over who's "Mother," who's "Experiment," and who's "Judy"-- let alone who's Dale or Richard or Linda--is made meaningful by the contrast it poses with the stasis of Laura's and Sarah's characters amid so much uncertainty.

All of the mythos we've discovered in The Return retains what might be called  total "plausible deniability."  That is, simply because we've seen something or heard a word uttered (or seen it appear in the end credits, or on the sign of an Odessa diner)  does not in any way mean we need to reframe the germinal scenario of the whole narrative-- the Palmer family tragedy... I think Frost , in particular, admires the mystery of conspiracy theories.  The outcome of The Return -- as evidenced by the number of totalizing theories among fan communities-- is rather like the Kennedy assassination. No number of theories about how it happened change the fundamental fact that it did happen or its historical context/implications-- more than five decades of theorizing hasn't changed much.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 12:22 pm
(@woodsman)
Lodger
Posted by: Badalamenti Fan
Posted by: SamXTherapy

Agree with the OP.  Sarah has something with her but it ain't been shown to us what it is.

Nor will it, ever.  Suggesting debates based on perceived "evidence" are moot.

What's more interesting, for this viewer, is asking questions about how we might read it poetically.

In the original series and FWWM, the metaphor of "possession" helped both the characters in the narrative (including Laura)  and the viewing audience cope with the unspeakable horror of Laura's suffering.

In the new series, the metaphor is extended in scope to cover the nuclear family, not merely the abuser and victim.  Sarah is very loosely implicated as complicit-- to the extent that she did not/could not intervene-- but, more fundamentally, I think we see her portrayed in a sympathetic light. 

Those who read her stabbing Laura's picture as some sort of malevolent act, recall that she's suffered a fate arguably as horrible as Laura's.  It struck me that we were seeing her completely unravel, and she remains, for me, the most compelling character in the Twin Peaks universe (after Laura, of course).

All of the mythos we've discovered in The Return seems, IMO, to retain total "plausible deniability," so to speak.  That is, simply because we've seen something or heard a word uttered does not in any way mean we need to understand the germinal scenario of the whole narrative-- the Palmer family tragedy-- differently.  Ditto, say, the Kennedy assassination. No number of theories about how it happened change the fundamental fact that it did happen, and more than five decades of theorizing hasn't yielded much at all. 

Agreed. I also read the picture smashing as something else. Sarah has been drowning Laura and her death and how it happened for years with booze and drugs and cigarettes. All a totally normal (if unhealthy) response that any mother might have after losing a child in that way. I see that scene as a mother finally facing the reality of what happened and finally confronting the picture she has left up all these years - the young beautiful Laura, as if she was still alive. She finally admits to herself that Laura is never coming back and tries to destroy the image, but she can not. Laura's death can not be erased.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 12:29 pm
(@death-bag)
RR Diner Patron

She'd be to young to be the bug-lady.  And TSH already gave her backstory 

. . . we're not gonna talk about Judy . .

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Posted : 06/09/2017 1:06 pm
(@rocksem)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Marty Thornley
Posted by: Badalamenti Fan
Posted by: SamXTherapy

Agree with the OP.  Sarah has something with her but it ain't been shown to us what it is.

Nor will it, ever.  Suggesting debates based on perceived "evidence" are moot.

What's more interesting, for this viewer, is asking questions about how we might read it poetically.

In the original series and FWWM, the metaphor of "possession" helped both the characters in the narrative (including Laura)  and the viewing audience cope with the unspeakable horror of Laura's suffering.

In the new series, the metaphor is extended in scope to cover the nuclear family, not merely the abuser and victim.  Sarah is very loosely implicated as complicit-- to the extent that she did not/could not intervene-- but, more fundamentally, I think we see her portrayed in a sympathetic light. 

Those who read her stabbing Laura's picture as some sort of malevolent act, recall that she's suffered a fate arguably as horrible as Laura's.  It struck me that we were seeing her completely unravel, and she remains, for me, the most compelling character in the Twin Peaks universe (after Laura, of course).

All of the mythos we've discovered in The Return seems, IMO, to retain total "plausible deniability," so to speak.  That is, simply because we've seen something or heard a word uttered does not in any way mean we need to understand the germinal scenario of the whole narrative-- the Palmer family tragedy-- differently.  Ditto, say, the Kennedy assassination. No number of theories about how it happened change the fundamental fact that it did happen, and more than five decades of theorizing hasn't yielded much at all. 

Agreed. I also read the picture smashing as something else. Sarah has been drowning Laura and her death and how it happened for years with booze and drugs and cigarettes. All a totally normal (if unhealthy) response that any mother might have after losing a child in that way. I see that scene as a mother finally facing the reality of what happened and finally confronting the picture she has left up all these years - the young beautiful Laura, as if she was still alive. She finally admits to herself that Laura is never coming back and tries to destroy the image, but she can not. Laura's death can not be erased.

Honestly, you can't just ignore context when viewing something. What are we shown immediately prior to this? Laura being 'saved" and her dead body disappearing along with events from that day her body is discovered occurring differently because that didn't happen. Then Sarah attempting to smash the picture while a sort of time loop occurs. The idea that scene is totally unrelated to what happened immediately prior seems a bit of a stretch.  And why is this lone scene shown here while no others like it shown if it is unrelated?

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Posted : 06/09/2017 1:08 pm
(@woodsman)
Lodger

How is she too young? Grace Zabriski was born in 1941. That is almost exact. In 89 she would have been 48, which looks about right for Sarah Palmer in the original series.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 1:11 pm
(@rocksem)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Marty Thornley

How is she too young? Grace Zabriski was born in 1941. That is almost exact. In 89 she would have been 48, which looks about right for Sarah Palmer in the original series.

The age of the actors is irrelevant. Sarah Palmer was born in 1945 which would make her 11 in 1956. Young, but not outside of the realm of possibility Sarah is the girl.

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Posted : 06/09/2017 2:01 pm
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