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(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Brandy Fisher

I wish it were as cut and dry as one of the above.  But I have strong suspicion that it is so much deeper and scarier and weirder than all that.

Hi Brandy,

And, as the one-of-a-kind Hunter S. Thompson once said:

😉

- /< /\ /> -

 

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Posted : 07/09/2017 10:12 am
(@mad-sweeney)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Anthony Despain

I'm okay with it all being a dream. Our dream. David Lynch's dream. The dream that we share with David Lynch- the brilliant story that is Twin Peaks. It's the only explanation that makes sense- trying to resolve it any other way, you hit a brick wall, in every case.

This.
"We live inside a dream" is not a theory. The show comes right out and says it several times. The point isn't that Twin Peaks was a dream and something else is reality. The point is that "We live inside a dream." Our reality is no more or less real that of Twin Peaks or the Lodges. A dream is where we live. All of us.

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Posted : 07/09/2017 10:19 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective
Posted by: Ric Bissell
Posted by: Brandy Fisher

I wish it were as cut and dry as one of the above.  But I have strong suspicion that it is so much deeper and scarier and weirder than all that.

Hi Brandy,

And, as the one-of-a-kind Hunter S. Thompson once said:

😉

- /< /\ /> -

 

Indeed.

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Posted : 07/09/2017 10:22 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective
Posted by: Renata Stachowiak

The knob from the old room 315 door was put on the door in the basement? Or, Mike intervened at some point. He can create tulpas, not hard to imagine he can change a key design. 

You really don't see it ? Your translation to this is at same level as "it was a dream" "it was a vision" "Mike intervented". Exactly the same. But in this topic the dream version is attacked with another versions of the same level of seriousness. Why Mike ? Let's write it was GOD INTERVENTION. Will it be any smarter ?

Here is this scene:

 

I "see" your evidence and don't find it compelling. I do, however, appreciate how resonant it is with you. They aren't exactly the same unless you're a subjective idealist, solipsist, or adhere to similar Indian or Eastern philosophy. 

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Posted : 07/09/2017 10:25 am
(@ranmacmh)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Caoimhín Shirey
Posted by: Renata Stachowiak

The knob from the old room 315 door was put on the door in the basement? Or, Mike intervened at some point. He can create tulpas, not hard to imagine he can change a key design. 

You really don't see it ? Your translation to this is at same level as "it was a dream" "it was a vision" "Mike intervented". Exactly the same. But in this topic the dream version is attacked with another versions of the same level of seriousness. Why Mike ? Let's write it was GOD INTERVENTION. Will it be any smarter ?

Here is this scene:

 

I "see" your evidence and don't find it compelling. I do, however, appreciate how resonant it is with you. They aren't exactly the same unless you're a subjective idealist, solipsist, or adhere to similar Indian or Eastern philosophy. 

Actually, and this may be an irritating theory but at least it's practical...

We know it's Dale's room key ring.  We don't know that that's the same key.  If I want you to hang on to an important key for me, like, say I need to you stop by my house and water my plants, (or if we put together a plan to reconvene in my hideout in the Great Northern's electrical room) I can put it on a big fat key ring for you so you don't lose it.

And since Mike has been chiming all over the Great Northern, he would have been very aware that the key landed in Twin Peaks and was handed over to Frank.

The "it's all a dream" narrative doesn't work for me because of the fact that it has no clear waking moment.  Again, in the show we even see Gordon retelling his "dream" but he is obviously awake and very thoughtful about it.  We might have seen Audrey waking from a "dream" state and you see how disoriented she is.  That's what I would need to be more convinced.

  I also know because of the open ended nature of the show we can go back and forth forever, I don't think there's going to be a definitive answer without more information.  But I do like thinking outside of the box of "its all a dream," because I personally feel very strongly that it doesn't work for this show.  If you feel very strongly that all signs point to the show being a dream from start to finish then I respect that. 

 

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Posted : 07/09/2017 8:02 pm
(@ranmacmh)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Jessica Jyotika

In response to: "If it's not a dream the ending is still crap because the entire timeline has possibly been erased as well as perhaps all the characters except Richard, Linda and Carrie."

If you read The Secret History of Twin Peaks (documents archived in a dossier by "The Archivist" Major Briggs, who as we know, had a nearly omniscient All-Access Pass to every dimension)...there is a "Missing" poster of Laura Palmer but no talk of her murder, which indeed reinforces that she was "unkilled" and shifted/re-incarnated to another timeline, by Judy/Joo-Day. (Has anyone looked into this name yet, historically--both versions? Judy...Judy Garland = Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz....another dream, with dreams within a dream--or our good old buddy Judas...okay, a stretch, LOL ~ but nothing is without multiple meanings and inferences in the Lynch/Frostiverse...) And NO, I don't buy the Dreamer theory in the sense that "It was all a bust/hallucination"--Ta Da! Aka, the wrap it up with a wink and a knee slap, get your TP t-shirt on the way out and tip your bartender theory.

Love your post!  So much great stuff in there, especially about how the story taps into some of the deeper levels of experience.  You already said it way better than I could so I'm just going to stop there. lol

Anyway, do you happen to know where the missing poster is in the book?  I have the SHoTP and I can't remember it.  I think I remember them talking about Laura's murder but they mess up facts like the fact that she was 18 and not 17 when she died.  But your comment was interesting because I was just trying to think through what the world of TP is like if Laura goes missing instead of being found murdered.  If she is missing than there's still an investigation, but without Ronette crossing the state line there's no FBI involvement correct?  Anyway, lots of potential ways that could go... but if you know where that poster is, let me know!

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Posted : 07/09/2017 8:13 pm
(@bob-john)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Christen Phillips
Posted by: Jessica Jyotika

...If you read The Secret History of Twin Peaks (documents archived in a dossier by "The Archivist" Major Briggs, who as we know, had a nearly omniscient All-Access Pass to every dimension)...there is a "Missing" poster of Laura Palmer but no talk of her murder, which indeed reinforces that she was "unkilled" and shifted/re-incarnated to another timeline, by Judy/Joo-Day. ...

...Anyway, do you happen to know where the missing poster is in the book?  I have the SHoTP and I can't remember it.  I think I remember them talking about Laura's murder but they mess up facts like the fact that she was 18 and not 17 when she died...

Just wanted to point out a couple passages from a quick re-review of TSHOTP.

When I looked, I recall several sections, notably the beginning by Cole: The case involved a series of homicides in and around a small town called Twin Peaks, most notably the murder of a young woman named Laura Palmer.

From Dr. Jacoby's final case notes: One child, Laura. Homecoming queen.  The golden girl next door that the whole town adored. Myself included. Dead at eighteen.  The facts say Leland then killed Laura's first cousin, too...

Then pictures of her on the shore and her face unwrapped from the plastic.

I don't recall her murder being retconned.  It's still difficult for me to fully reconcile TSHOTP being written by the Archivist after the events changed (although I like the idea), but it would explain the discrepancies if they were intentional.

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Posted : 07/09/2017 9:00 pm
(@gordon-cole)
Town Visitor
Posted by: LowellC

Some TV history is in order. One of the most successful series in television history was a show in the early 1980s called St. Elsewhere. It had a devoted audience and featured, among others, some great young actors such as Ed Begley, Jr., Denzel Washington and Mark Harmon. When it finally wrapped with its finale, the show's creators pulled a fast one and decided that they would reveal the entire drama, the entire series, was nothing more than a dream that a young boy was having in a hospital bed.

 

 

It wasn't the dream of a boy in a hospital bed. It was all in the mind of an autistic kid, Tommy Westphall.

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Posted : 07/09/2017 9:03 pm
(@cyndeewillow)
Roadhouse Regular

Also--I watch a lot of "specialty" TV ie sci-fi fantasy alternative TV (Doctor Who, Fringe, Buffy, Dollhouse, Doctor Who, etc) and messing with alternate realities and timelines has come a long way since Dallas and St. Elsewhere.  JJ Abrahms' Fringe did rather spectacular (or annoying depending on your viewpoint) things with alternative timelines a few years' ago, after LOST, and perhaps far more sophisticated moves. 

And never forget the whole "Dawn, the sister of Buffy" plot line where a brand-new family member shows up in season 5 of Buffy.

Wow, I read this whole thread and it is really quite expansive. 

 

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Posted : 07/09/2017 9:26 pm
(@artamisbgone)
Lodger

About a year ago I watched Season 1 & 2 and FWWM and compiled a list of the dream references. I still continue to think of more (like Donna telling Audrey to "dream on" for example). But below is a list just to give an idea of how prevalent dreams have always been in TP's. 

But for the record, I think that TP's is a bardo journey of Cooper. He may have died at the Lamplighter Inn involving a "cherry pie." If Diane, in Mulholland Drive can find herself in a "dream place." Why can't Cooper?

He is the dream weaver after all.

While Laura is the one.

 

Let me know if I missed any references (Cooper's large tasteless gumdrops notwithstanding):

Twin Peaks FWWM: Cooper to Gordon Cole I was worried about today from the dream I told you about”

Twim Peaks FWWM: Jefferies “It was a dream. We live inside a dream”

Twin Peaks FWWM: Carl to Cooper "It's ok, I was having a bad dream anyway"

Pilot: Bobby to Norma: I'll see you in my dreams

Episode 1: Donna "It's like I'm having the most beautiful dream and the most terrible nightmare all at once."

Episode 2: Truman "The idea for this really came from a dream?"

Episode 3: Cooper "Let me tell you about a dream I had last night" and 
“do you know where dreams come from?"

Epidode 4: Cooper: "I suspected my dream was connected to . . . . "

Episode 4: Cooper: "In my dream Mike said that he and BOB lived just above a convenient store"

Episode 4: Donna: “ . . her mother was kind of spooky, she had these dreams . . “

Episode 5: Cooper: “Red drapes Harry . . from my dream . . .”

Episode 6 :Laura on tape: “ . . . I feel like I’m in a dream tonight . . . “

Episode 6:Maddy imitating Laura: “ . . I feel like I’m in dream tonight . . “

Episode 7: Maddy speaking to Sarah: “I had the strangest dream last night”

Episode 7: Jacoby speaking to Cooper/Truman: “I can remember hearing the fire alarm go off . . that’s all, I . . . it’s all like a dream . . . . “

Episode 8: Major Briggs to Bobby: A vision I had in my sleep last night. As distinguished from a dream, which is a mere sorting and cataloguing of the day's events by the subconscious . . . "

Episode 9: Cooper speaking to Albert: “And BOB, the man Sarah Palmer saw in her visions. The man who came to me in my dream.”

Episode 9: Jerry speaking to Ben: “Is this real Ben? Or some strange and twisted dream?”

Episode 10: Cooper speaking to Truman: “Harry remember in my dream the one armed man knew BOB”

Episode 10: Maddy speaking to Leland: “It’s like all I did was come to a funeral . . . and I fell into a dream”

Epidsode 12: Harold speaking to Donna: “There are things you can’t find anywhere, but we dream they can be found in others. Please continue.
Donna: Maybe our dreams are real."

Episode 12: Renault to Nancy "Is the girl asleep? 
Nancy: "Dreamland."

Renault: Does she dream of fishes? Of dark lake beds and tangled weeds?

Episode 13: Cole to Cooper “Restless nights and uneasy dreams go with the territory”

Episode 15: CATHERINE (TAPE – speaking to Ben Horne) How often I've thought of you. You and that night we spent together lost in love ... when was that? Yes,I remember, it was the night Laura Palmer died. It seems so long ago, almost like a dream. Memory's so unreliable finally, maybe it was a dream, maybe it never happened. To tell you the truth, I can't be sure anymore.

Episode 16: DONNA (reading Laura’s words in her diary) February 21st. Last night I had the strangest dream. . . . Even if it was only a dream, I hope he heard me. No one in the real world would believe me.

Cooper: Laura and I had the same dream. 

[An aside: in a variant script Cooper also says : "But in her dream I was Mike." Which is very curious.]

Cooper to Gerard (Mike) Bob was in my dream. So was Laura Palmer. So were you. And Laura dreamt about me the night before she died. The same dream. I need to go back there and unlock my dream.

COOPER to Truman Laura told me. In my dream.

Episode 20: RENAULT to Cooper Their simple dreams have become a nightmare.What's more death, after all? Maybe yours will be the last. Maybe you brought the nightmare with you.

Episode 26: Major Briggs "I have dreamed it. Or seen it. Somewhere. Somehow."

Episode 27: Major Briggs (answering Earle's question "Now, when did you first see the hieroglyph in Owl Cave?": "In . . . in dreams"

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Posted : 06/10/2017 9:32 am
(@grant_pettigrew)
Lodger

Don't know if this is of interest, but I 'Liked' this Tweet from Mark Frost just before the finale aired....interesting words from the man himself....

 

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Posted : 11/10/2017 3:12 pm
(@dr_memory)
Lodger
Posted by: Gordon Cole
Posted by: LowellC

Some TV history is in order. One of the most successful series in television history was a show in the early 1980s called St. Elsewhere. It had a devoted audience and featured, among others, some great young actors such as Ed Begley, Jr., Denzel Washington and Mark Harmon. When it finally wrapped with its finale, the show's creators pulled a fast one and decided that they would reveal the entire drama, the entire series, was nothing more than a dream that a young boy was having in a hospital bed.

 

 

It wasn't the dream of a boy in a hospital bed. It was all in the mind of an autistic kid, Tommy Westphall.

You are correct sir, as evidenced by the final spoken line of dialogue spoken by the alternative (real?) Donald Westphall:

“I don’t understand this autism thing, Pop. He’s my son, I talk to him. I don’t even know if he can hear me. He sits there all day long, in his own world, staring at that toy. What’s he thinkin’ about?”

I respect the OP's original statements, I think they were very astute into the nature of TP, but I disagree with his supposition that the St. Elsewhere ending was a critical and audience destroying disaster.  I'm not sure LowellC entirely remembers or is properly interpreting the reaction to and legacy of the St. Elsewhere ending.  At the time, the prospect of a television series reality in effect being the product of another higher, more realistic,  reality was revolutionary and has had significant positive influence on how television shows interpret what essentially is an elastic vision of the relationship between out reality and the reality being presented by the story.

That said, I think the brave and innovative choice of the St. Elsewhere writers very much influenced shows like Twin Peaks.

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Posted : 12/10/2017 12:29 pm
(@cosmo)
Owl

Very nice lesson, actually, thank you for that. I was looking forward to a Dallas reference also, a series which I watched as a kid in the early nineties (same time with the first two TP series, which were always, and still are my favorite show - which has now reached completion), and from which all I remember was that at some time a loved character called Bobby died, housewives all over the world were devastated, and after many months or years, he was brought back via "it was all a dream" cheap trick.

And yea, for sure there's nothing slightly cheap about grandmasters Frost and Lynch.

BUT, I have a different dream theory, still considering some of its aspects, but it might just work. Before that, however, a couple of things - I do not agree with the real Dale goes home theory one bit, sorry for that, it's not just that your arguments don't tie up, as pointed by previous posts, but the real Dale Cooper is not a family guy. The real Dale Cooper suffers from a White Knight syndrome, always has, he must save everyone, save the world, save the girl (who lived down the lane). He is the FBI.

There is a big part of me who wanted a neatly wrapped ending, to somehow "make up" for the bewilderment of a 10 year old who simply could not cope with "how's Annie?", and that part was more than satisfied with part 16 (which I refer to as the best hour in TV history), and the hilariously satisfying showdown at the sheriff station in the first part of part 17, and the same part would love a nice the good Dale goes back to Janey-E and Sonny Jim (no! you're my dad!) - but only if it made sense, and it doesn't. Plus, they do not want/need the good Dale, they want the reformed Dougie. And they get it, and that's a true happy ending for the Joneses, subplot neatly wrapped.

Now back to the dream theory, which I am seriously considering to approach in detail in a distinct thread, I believe, and have developed (to a certain level of detail, but not in full) another theory to be closer to the Lynch style, the one we saw masterfully displayed in my favorite movie, Mulholland Drive (next to FWWM, which I don't really treat like a standalone movie).

It is not the series it is the dream, of course not, that would be a total nonsense. But what about the last hour and a half? I believe so, for more reasons than one, to be further detailed separately.

But think about it. The Monica Bellucci dream, the ancient phrase, and the question. The dreamer dreams, then lives inside the dream. But who is the dreamer? Well, who else can it be than the good Dale Cooper, ironically, freshly awake himself. Finally. 100%. Off to dreamland again.

It is his face superimposed on the screen, it is his voice announcing that "we live inside a dream". Except that it is not we. It is just him, trapped inside a dream, the dream he dreams and then lives inside, obviously by Judy, obviously to keep him from his lifelong quest and obsession to make short work of her.

And he would, for sure, with the perfected courage of one who has survived the lodge, sent his doppelganger (blown into oblivion in the meanwhile) back into the lodge and into fiery (black fire) oblivion, survived bob (blown to smithereens by the green glove marvel character mock-up), and only one evil piece left to eliminate: her. 

But, once again, the special agent needs to wake up. And he does. And then the show ends. And most likely, the clock in the sheriff's station finally reaches 2:53, and thus completion.

Apart from the Monica Bellucci dream, which is a very clear indicator that we will have a dream somewhere, one that we should spot (somehow, however, all of the fan community seems not to, and unanimously embrace the alternate dimension loop theory, which makes *some* sense, but also leaves quite a few loose ends, or at least sloppy ends, which is not like Lynch AT ALL), there are other strong indicators, my favorite being: the pin.

Yup, the FBI pin, which only when I re-watched, in full silence, and strict attention, episode 3, I noted (heard, actually) that fell, together with the shoes, left behind by Coop as he entered the socket. It never appears again - and how could it? It is in a structure, somewhere out there, over the sea of purple. It is gone.

Yet it reappears, as Coop emerges from the dark background with Gordon and Diane. And stays with us through to the end. That, I believe is a dream "marker".

Plus, the awakening scene, have we seen something like that before? House all lit up with electricity, then shutdown, blonde curly haired woman screaming her heart out? I'm not positive about the parallel, but I would not dismiss it either, I like how it sounds.

In between, however, there are numerous samples of dream "mechanics" and functions, to which Lynch is not only a stranger to, but actually a master of. He proved it in MD, and now I believe he did it again.

But on those, a separate post that can allow me to structure my thoughts and ideas in a less chaotic manner than this post right here (also my first one ;).

Cheers!

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Posted : 19/10/2017 9:45 am
(@s0methingvagu3)
RR Diner Patron

Have we all read the Final Dossier at this point? Is this thread considered solved? 

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Posted : 12/11/2017 8:17 am
(@cyndeewillow)
Roadhouse Regular

Plus, the awakening scene, have we seen something like that before? House all lit up with electricity, then shutdown, blonde curly haired woman screaming her heart out? I'm not positive about the parallel, but I would not dismiss it either, I like how it sounds.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is this referring to?

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Posted : 12/11/2017 11:49 am
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