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430, richard and linda, two birds one stone  

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(@frogmoth)
Town Visitor

After thinking about it quite a bit. I am not certain the first scene from episode 1 takes place where we think it does, I think it takes place later (post episode 18)

Think about it:

1) 430 - Cooper had the coordinates, but he tells Diane he got them from Briggs.

2) Richard and Linda - As much as Cooper seems to remember about who he is, that he works with the FBI, Laura, how to get back to twin peaks, etc... when he sees the name Richard on the letter, he seems confused. why would he remember 430 and not richard. because he didn't KNOW 430 from that converstaion, he knew it from a different conversation with someone else.

3) Two Birds with one Stone - again, cole claims that cooper told him long ago "if i ever disappear do everything you can to find me, I will be killing two birds with one stone".  so this was something that came from Cooper. The giant was trying to get him to "REMEMBER richard and linda"

still think cooper not having his FBI button on his suit is very telling. You know who else doesn't have an FBI button on their suit?  the new "dougie" he had mike send back to vegas.

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Posted : 08/09/2017 12:51 am cyndeewillow and William De Bruijn liked
(@xellosmaster)
RR Diner Patron

1) When he told that to her ?

2)  He remember 430 because, he loose his memory after crossing 430 mile. Before he cross that point he remember everything.

3) Well, we don't know when was his dream with Fireman. I call this dream, why not ? Look how he dissapear. Fireman say "You are far away" - well for me it's mean he is not there in meaning he is sitting like in wating room or something. Just his image, soul, dream. In that point, he don't need to have a FBI pin. We never saw anyone in TP dissapeared this way.

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Posted : 08/09/2017 9:05 am
(@frogmoth)
Town Visitor

1) He tells Diane when they are in the car and they stop right before he goes to check out the spot he makes a reference to Briggs telling him that was the spot.

2)  he knew WHERE he was going, that he was going to find Laura, that he was agent cooper, that he was in the FBI and how to get Laura back to Twin Peaks. He however did not seem to remember the Richard part and that is why I am not certain he knows to be looking for the names richard and linda (We don't know that he remembers 430 at that point after crossing over because he doesn't mention it after that). My point is that a lot of people were assuming the 1st scene from season 3 is where he got the info. I think it is in the future. The Cooper in TX already has all that info. I think the Fireman is telling the OTHER cooper (the "dougie" in vegas that mike sent) to trigger THAT one into remembering. 

3) He has the pin on in, I believe, every lodge/waiting room scene EXCEPT when he is sitting there talking to the Fireman in episode 1. 

I think "i understand" in the twin peaks world is their way of saying "okay i have re-downloaded these memories" in essence. If "dougie" could speak without having to have repeated something I believe he would have said "i understand" before he put the fork in the outlet. 

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Posted : 08/09/2017 9:55 am
(@xellosmaster)
RR Diner Patron

1) Really ??? I have this right now on the screen. What I hear:

C: Almost exactly 430 miles

C: Exactly 430 miles

D: Just think about it Cooper

Where is any Briggs there ?

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Posted : 08/09/2017 10:34 am
(@waldo75)
Town Visitor
Posted by: Renata Stachowiak

Look how he dissapear.

He disappeared a lot like Laura's body wrapped in plastic...

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Posted : 08/09/2017 11:09 am
(@xellosmaster)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Pinokijo Frus
Posted by: Renata Stachowiak

Look how he dissapear.

He disappeared a lot like Laura's body wrapped in plastic...

There is something else. The tree asks question to Coop. He don't answer. Fireman don't ask him for answer, but he speak twice...What more it looks like he don't belive him "it is ?" It is not same bahavior when he is in waiting room.

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Posted : 08/09/2017 11:21 am
(@encha_loda)
Dweller

I recently posted in another thread, i took a review of the Arms message.

The subtitle says "253", but as far as i can hear, the arms says "257" ?

 

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Posted : 08/09/2017 11:27 am
(@frogmoth)
Town Visitor

Wow, see this is how the show is messing with me, i could have SWORN he mentioned Briggs in regards to something else we thought he got from someone else. Either way. Was it earlier in regards to the Key?   I still stand by my initial statement that i think the 1st scene of three with him and the fireman takes place AFTER all of this. 

Still sticking by the FBI pin as a giveaway. He ALWAYS has it on in the lodge, he doesn't have it when he comes out as "Dougie" the first time in Vegas. And does not have it when the confrontation with BOB happens in Truman's office. (oddly enough he has the pin back on again when him, Diane and Cole go to the hotel door - implying Cole gave him a new one in the interim). He has it on again as he's driving Diane/Linda over the 430 point and has it on when he meets up with Laura/Carrie.  

The new dougie does not have one either when he shows up at Janey's door. They are keeping oddly detailed about that pin and were careful NOT to put it back on his suit jacket until he could have realistically gotten a new one. So why would he NOT be wearing it when he's talking to the Fireman. Because it's not him, it's the NEW cooper that was sent to janey. 

Cooper told Cole before he went into the lodge the first time "if i get lost do everything you can to find me, i'll be killing two birds with one stone". 

If new Dougie/Coop goes to 430, finds Richard and linda, and tells him "kill two birds with one stone" that would be a way for Richard/Coop to know it's a "good guy"

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Posted : 08/09/2017 2:32 pm wow_bob_wow liked
(@bryn_nelson)
Owl

OK, so I had to sign up to comment after hearing about your theory. Bear with me – I don’t know for sure if everything completely adds up, but I noticed the FBI badge placement too and I think you’re on to something.

So how about this? Coop knew that looking for Judy in the world beyond the 430 point would be highly dangerous, and that “everything could be different” – i.e. an alternate reality. Judy’s whisking away of Laura to the new/alternate reality of Odessa after Coop tried to save her in the woods in 1989 would seem to confirm her power to distort reality or create a new one.

Coop also knew that others had disappeared when trying to look for Judy. So why couldn’t Coop use the seed (stone) to do two things: restore a version of himself to Janey-E and Sonny Jim in Las Vegas and also use that tulpa as a strategy to anchor a version of him (with his memory) in the real world? Everyone’s focused on Coop being outplayed by Judy in the alternate Twin Peaks at the very end, but I think it’s likely that new Las Vegas Dugie-Coop has his faculties intact and is Coop’s Plan B.

In the Red Room, after being created, the new Dugie/Coop says, “Where Am I?” The black and white scene at the very beginning of this series, as you suggested, could happen next – he is taken to the Fireman, who says, “It is in our house now, which I take to mean Judy. Cooper seems to recognize the scratching sound associated with her this time around; this means he wouldn’t have realized what it meant in the woods in 1989 but now he would understand. He nervously replies, “It is?” which seems to confirm that. Then, “I understand,” as you suggest, would indicate that he has full memory of what has happened, perhaps as restored by the Giant. “You are far away,” would suggest that one version of Coop is indeed far away – now caught in Judy’s alternate reality. After that, new Dugie-Coop would be ready to return to Las Vegas, sans FBI badge but with the full knowledge of what had happened – and in a manner similar to how he disappeared and reappeared in Las Vegas the first time around. Btw, the first first scene in this season was a Red Room prelude/link to what happened before. So why couldn't the very next scene act like a coda?

Recall that when he reappeared in Las Vegas at the end, the new Dugie-Coop said, “Home” unprompted, not just repeating what someone else said. He also smiled, made eye contact and extended his arms to hug Sonny Jim. The old Dugie/Coop didn’t have that same level of awareness. So there’s clearly something different about this version.

One interpretation of “killing two birds with one stone,” then, could be using the seed/stone to 1) give Janey-E and Sonny Jim their father back and 2) have some insurance in case anything happened to Coop in Judy’s world. In other words, this version of Coop would understand that he’s a vehicle in the real world for Coop to continue battling evil and possibly even intervene in the alternate reality world. He would, as you suggested, have a trail of breadcrumbs (“430, Richard and Linda”) to find the real Coop in the alternate world.

From that vantage, Judy may have won the battle, but not the war.     

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Posted : 08/09/2017 4:10 pm
(@mad-sweeney)
Roadhouse Regular

It's as good a theory as any. I have just one small nit to pick. I believe Sonny Jim exclaimed, "Dad, you're home!" while running to the door, to which Dougie 2.0 replied, "Home." 

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Posted : 08/09/2017 4:16 pm
(@bryn_nelson)
Owl

Ah, my bad. I do think his expression and movements suggest he's not simply another addled Dugie though. Remember that the first time, his journey to Las Vegas was rather complicated, in part through the machinations of Mr. C. This time, if sent back with the aid of the Fireman, there's no reason to think his brains would be scrambled any more than Diane's tulpa was (though likely still with a few tics?) 

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Posted : 08/09/2017 4:24 pm James M Sweeney liked
(@death-bag)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Frog Moth

Wow, see this is how the show is messing with me, i could have SWORN he mentioned Briggs in regards to something else we thought he got from someone else. Either way. Was it earlier in regards to the Key?   I still stand by my initial statement that i think the 1st scene of three with him and the fireman takes place AFTER all of this. 

Still sticking by the FBI pin as a giveaway. He ALWAYS has it on in the lodge, he doesn't have it when he comes out as "Dougie" the first time in Vegas. And does not have it when the confrontation with BOB happens in Truman's office. (oddly enough he has the pin back on again when him, Diane and Cole go to the hotel door - implying Cole gave him a new one in the interim). He has it on again as he's driving Diane/Linda over the 430 point and has it on when he meets up with Laura/Carrie.  

The new dougie does not have one either when he shows up at Janey's door. They are keeping oddly detailed about that pin and were careful NOT to put it back on his suit jacket until he could have realistically gotten a new one. So why would he NOT be wearing it when he's talking to the Fireman. Because it's not him, it's the NEW cooper that was sent to janey. 

Cooper told Cole before he went into the lodge the first time "if i get lost do everything you can to find me, i'll be killing two birds with one stone". 

If new Dougie/Coop goes to 430, finds Richard and linda, and tells him "kill two birds with one stone" that would be a way for Richard/Coop to know it's a "good guy"

Ah the pin . . . that hasn't been brought up much.

First I don't remember that Coop went in after Annie (I'll need to recheck)

And in Ep 1-4 I saw it "changed" a few times, but that of course could just be "lighting"

. . . we're not gonna talk about Judy . .

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Posted : 08/09/2017 4:33 pm
(@the-woodsman)
Lodger
Posted by: Frog Moth

After thinking about it quite a bit. I am not certain the first scene from episode 1 takes place where we think it does, I think it takes place later (post episode 18)

Think about it:

1) 430 - Cooper had the coordinates, but he tells Diane he got them from Briggs.

2) Richard and Linda - As much as Cooper seems to remember about who he is, that he works with the FBI, Laura, how to get back to twin peaks, etc... when he sees the name Richard on the letter, he seems confused. why would he remember 430 and not richard. because he didn't KNOW 430 from that converstaion, he knew it from a different conversation with someone else.

3) Two Birds with one Stone - again, cole claims that cooper told him long ago "if i ever disappear do everything you can to find me, I will be killing two birds with one stone".  so this was something that came from Cooper. The giant was trying to get him to "REMEMBER richard and linda"

still think cooper not having his FBI button on his suit is very telling. You know who else doesn't have an FBI button on their suit?  the new "dougie" he had mike send back to vegas.

It feels like a loop to me. That scene with the fireman can be set exactly after the lights go off in the palmer house. You can watch The Return, infinitely. It might not be that enjoyable, but it might analogous to Coopers experience from now on. 

The problem with analysing and assigning meaning to something like 'two birds with one stone' is it could almost be attributable to anything that happened or that Cooper and The Fireman wanted to happen. It's futile trying to attach it. But, whatever works for you. 

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Posted : 08/09/2017 4:39 pm wow_bob_wow liked
(@death-bag)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Darren Burdock-Latter
Posted by: Frog Moth

After thinking about it quite a bit. I am not certain the first scene from episode 1 takes place where we think it does, I think it takes place later (post episode 18)

Think about it:

1) 430 - Cooper had the coordinates, but he tells Diane he got them from Briggs.

2) Richard and Linda - As much as Cooper seems to remember about who he is, that he works with the FBI, Laura, how to get back to twin peaks, etc... when he sees the name Richard on the letter, he seems confused. why would he remember 430 and not richard. because he didn't KNOW 430 from that converstaion, he knew it from a different conversation with someone else.

3) Two Birds with one Stone - again, cole claims that cooper told him long ago "if i ever disappear do everything you can to find me, I will be killing two birds with one stone".  so this was something that came from Cooper. The giant was trying to get him to "REMEMBER richard and linda"

still think cooper not having his FBI button on his suit is very telling. You know who else doesn't have an FBI button on their suit?  the new "dougie" he had mike send back to vegas.

It feels like a loop to me. That scene with the fireman can be set exactly after the lights go off in the palmer house. You can watch The Return, infinitely. It might not be that enjoyable, but it might analogous to Coopers experience from now on. 

The problem with analysing and assigning meaning to something like 'two birds with one stone' is it could almost be attributable to anything that happened or that Cooper and The Fireman wanted to happen. It's futile trying to attach it. But, whatever works for you. 

you nailed a major point "that Cooper and The Fireman wanted to happen" . . .

There was a plan (somewhere), and it got ambushed/foiled and failed.

 

. . . we're not gonna talk about Judy . .

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Posted : 08/09/2017 4:55 pm
(@death-bag)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Darren Burdock-Latter
Posted by: Frog Moth

After thinking about it quite a bit. I am not certain the first scene from episode 1 takes place where we think it does, I think it takes place later (post episode 18)

Think about it:

1) 430 - Cooper had the coordinates, but he tells Diane he got them from Briggs.

2) Richard and Linda - As much as Cooper seems to remember about who he is, that he works with the FBI, Laura, how to get back to twin peaks, etc... when he sees the name Richard on the letter, he seems confused. why would he remember 430 and not richard. because he didn't KNOW 430 from that converstaion, he knew it from a different conversation with someone else.

3) Two Birds with one Stone - again, cole claims that cooper told him long ago "if i ever disappear do everything you can to find me, I will be killing two birds with one stone".  so this was something that came from Cooper. The giant was trying to get him to "REMEMBER richard and linda"

still think cooper not having his FBI button on his suit is very telling. You know who else doesn't have an FBI button on their suit?  the new "dougie" he had mike send back to vegas.

It feels like a loop to me. That scene with the fireman can be set exactly after the lights go off in the palmer house. You can watch The Return, infinitely. It might not be that enjoyable, but it might analogous to Coopers experience from now on. 

The problem with analysing and assigning meaning to something like 'two birds with one stone' is it could almost be attributable to anything that happened or that Cooper and The Fireman wanted to happen. It's futile trying to attach it. But, whatever works for you. 

you nailed a major point "that Cooper and The Fireman wanted to happen" . . .

There was a plan (somewhere), and it got ambushed/foiled and failed.

 

. . . we're not gonna talk about Judy . .

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/09/2017 4:55 pm
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