Unnecessarily Cryptic Clues from the Giant/Fireman  

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(@elad-repooc)
Roadhouse Regular

I was just thinking about how cryptic the clues are from the Giant/Fireman, both in season 2 and in The Return. I can understand it from a David Lynch plot point of view, because it makes the story more complex and puzzling, which keeps us gripped. But I find it amusing because purely in terms of one character trying to help another character, it's the most unhelpful way to try to help someone.

Like, in season 2, all that stuff about Leo locked in hungry horse, there's a man in a smiling bag, the owls are not what they seem. If the Giant knew stuff and genuinely wanted to help Cooper, he could have just told him stuff straight, like "Leland killed Laura, but he was possessed by an evil spirit called Bob, who is from a place called the Black Lodge. In order to stop Bob killing again, you need to go to this location at this time and do this."

Or with the Fireman saying things about remember 430, Richard and Linda, two bird with one stone. If I was Cooper, I'd be like, "Dude, stop talking in riddles! Just tell me where I need to go, who I need to meet, and what I need to do!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Twin Peaks should be done in that way, because it wouldn't be as much fun. I'm just saying I see through it as a way to make the plot more puzzling and complex than it otherwise would be, and I just find that amusing. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 3:25 am
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron

Amusing it is (often absurd, sometimes hilarious). Isn't it (i) a filmic/Lynchian representation of the reality of things that can't be communicated clearly and directly (things that the communicator doesn't understand well themselves) and, interrelated, (ii) a metaphor for what Lynch is trying to do with his work: point towards and enliven the ineffable underpinnings of our (social) existential situation?

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Posted : 20/08/2017 4:04 am
(@myn0k)
Deputy

Listen to all of the beings in the lodge - most of them speak cryptic.

There are many reasons why this could be, but the most obvious to me is this is how our minds translate the information from the other side. Much like a dream, it is all symbolic and our brain interprets and translates the experience/information the best way it can. 

The red room is not really a jazz lounge place with red curtains (that would be daft). This is just how our minds interpret the information - the curtains block off certain areas, symbolising that the people there are not ready to see behind the veil, their consciousness blocks off things the mind is not yet ready to see. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 4:06 am
raincloud, KLynched, 1stDragonarse and 9 people liked
(@elad-repooc)
Roadhouse Regular

Interesting...

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Posted : 20/08/2017 4:19 am
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron

It also reminds us of the differences between  verbal language and visual depiction as ways of knowing/understanding, and the need for some kind of non-reductive integration to get to and better deal with things as they are.

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Posted : 20/08/2017 4:42 am
buttercup liked
(@elad-repooc)
Roadhouse Regular

Yes, sometimes it's about the feeling rather than the logic. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 4:46 am
(@steve_moss)
Roadhouse Regular

Perhaps the dreamer understands the message in the dream but becomes confused when it wakes up. The message stays the same but the state of the dreamer is altered. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 5:55 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective
Posted by: Myn0k

Listen to all of the beings in the lodge - most of them speak cryptic.

There are many reasons why this could be, but the most obvious to me is this is how our minds translate the information from the other side. Much like a dream, it is all symbolic and our brain interprets and translates the experience/information the best way it can. 

The red room is not really a jazz lounge place with red curtains (that would be daft). This is just how our minds interpret the information - the curtains block off certain areas, symbolising that the people there are not ready to see behind the veil, their consciousness blocks off things the mind is not yet ready to see. 

Exactly this, IMO.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 20/08/2017 6:53 am
(@naogilles)
RR Diner Patron

True, whenever I dream of something, things make sense in the dream and not when I wake up. This is generally how you distinguish dreams from reality after all. The fireman says things as they make sense to him -- within his reality. He doesn't care about the way humans process information in the real world, but how he processes it. What he says is what he deems important. This is why he has a connection with people who are either accustomed to alternate ways of thinking/interpreting dreams (Coop) or who are simple enough not to try and interpret with their intellect but with their heart (Andy). When I first watched the OS, I thought the Giant was a rebel who was speaking in riddles because he didn't want to be found out. Now I simply think he follows his own way of reasoning. To him, saying 'remember 430' makes sense, and 'remember that the killer of the chocolate bunny is Harry Truman possessed by the doppelganger of Denise' is unintelligible gibberish that someone could tell him in HIS dreams and don't really make sense to him.

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Posted : 20/08/2017 8:01 am
(@jocelyn)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Myn0k

Listen to all of the beings in the lodge - most of them speak cryptic.

There are many reasons why this could be, but the most obvious to me is this is how our minds translate the information from the other side. Much like a dream, it is all symbolic and our brain interprets and translates the experience/information the best way it can. 

The red room is not really a jazz lounge place with red curtains (that would be daft). This is just how our minds interpret the information - the curtains block off certain areas, symbolising that the people there are not ready to see behind the veil, their consciousness blocks off things the mind is not yet ready to see. 

True, but by the Fireman's own admission, he CAN'T  say it all. Not now. I don't think the limits are entirely on the human side. I don't believe interpretations from psychoanalysis or existential psychology can explain this film. It's about a world unknown to us. Our categories of understanding and a priori conceptions of space and time do not apply to it. The Noumena that Kant said we could never know. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 8:12 am
(@devaneyfan)
Roadhouse Regular

Cooper and Andy receive information through two very different approaches.  

Cooper gets riddles - I'd argue that is the best way to trigger Cooper's intellectual and intuitive strengths. 

Andy gets a "movie" which likely better matches his emotional orientation and, possibly, learning style. 

The Fireman needs to share information but in a way that motivates Cooper and Andy to act according to their own free will.  Cooper would not do what the Giant simply told him in season 1; he had to experience it at a more intuitive level.  Andy likely needed to sense the emotional nature of the message (the girl crying when Laura died, the trepidation on Lucy's face, the desperation of Naido).  Andy's empathy is the path for him to overcome the terror with much of the message and do what the Fireman needs Andy to do.  

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Posted : 20/08/2017 8:54 am
(@jocelyn)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: JeffreyGWillett

Both Cooper and Andy receive information through two very different approaches.  

Cooper gets riddles - perhaps that is the best way to trigger Cooper's intellectual and intuitive strengths. 

Andy gets a "movie" which likely better matches his emotional orientation and possibly learning style. 

The Fireman needs to share information but in a way that motivates Cooper and Andy to act.  Cooper would not do what the Giant simply told him in season 1; he had to experience it at a more intuitive level.  Andy likely needed to sense the emotional nature of the message (the girl crying when Laura died, the trepidation on Lucy's face, the desperation of Naido).  Andy's empathy is the path for him to do what the Fireman needs.  

That does make sense.  I was surprised by Freddies story. It sounded like a very straight narrative, full of very specific instructions. The fireman used normal language and answered Freddies question. Of course we don't see it, but Freddie describes it that way.

This is so unlike the Fireman we have seen. He hardly says a word to Cooper. He explains nothing and their interactions are marked by long stretches of silence. Maybe he spells it out to Freddie because he has only a functional role to play and nothing else needs to be said or understood.

And also the way Freddie describes it reminds me of sections from the Bible/Torah. In Genesis God would sometimes give very specific mundane instructions to Moses or one of the Prophets. I should say mundane but strange and always very important.

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Posted : 20/08/2017 9:10 am
(@buttercup)
Deputy

The Fireman understands that in order for his communication to be effective he must use the listener's preferred learning modality. 

Plus, Lynch does what suits the mystery.  Imagine  if he had shown us a picture of Richard and Linda, we would have had a clear picture of who they were from the beginning.  We would still be asking the same question though, "When are we going to talk about Linda?"

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Posted : 20/08/2017 9:17 am
(@steve_moss)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Jocelyn Rowe
Posted by: JeffreyGWillett

Both Cooper and Andy receive information through two very different approaches.  

Cooper gets riddles - perhaps that is the best way to trigger Cooper's intellectual and intuitive strengths. 

Andy gets a "movie" which likely better matches his emotional orientation and possibly learning style. 

The Fireman needs to share information but in a way that motivates Cooper and Andy to act.  Cooper would not do what the Giant simply told him in season 1; he had to experience it at a more intuitive level.  Andy likely needed to sense the emotional nature of the message (the girl crying when Laura died, the trepidation on Lucy's face, the desperation of Naido).  Andy's empathy is the path for him to do what the Fireman needs.  

That does make sense.  I was surprised by Freddies story. It sounded like a very straight narrative, full of very specific instructions. The fireman used normal language and answered Freddies question. Of course we don't see it, but Freddie describes it that way.

This is so unlike the Fireman we have seen. He hardly says a word to Cooper. He explains nothing and their interactions are marked by long stretches of silence. Maybe he spells it out to Freddie because he has only a functional role to play and nothing else needs to be said or understood.

And also the way Freddie describes it reminds me of sections from the Bible/Torah. In Genesis God would sometimes give very specific mundane instructions to Moses or one of the Prophets. I should say mundane but strange and always very important.

Perhaps Freddy is a Cockney bullshit artist?

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Posted : 20/08/2017 9:18 am
(@myn0k)
Deputy

We're also assuming the Giant is the Fireman. I'd guess they are one and the same. But they may not be. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 9:30 am
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