So... Who's the dreamer?  

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(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

Yeah, but who is the guy telling you that 'your self doesnt exist, it is just a hallucination, etc.', this is a self/dreaming, a person telling you to try and erase your dreams, forget about them, etc., a hallucinatory stance that seeks salvation in avoiding the dream, hiding from it, shooting the 'blue rose tulpa' and pretending everything is going to work out fine.  As we see with Cooper, this can never work out, and the 'self' comes back with a painful vengeance since the self is trying to eliminate itself, shoot itself but cannot kill its blue rose tulpa; now this self which tries to eliminate dreams because they dont exist as positive fact, is demanding viciously that self exists, but only for himself, exerting wild mastery to impose its dream of killing anyone who tries to dream or produce something with dreams in the world. 

Although the 'self' is thought as an 'embodied' vortex, it is still a centering around this vortex, a process of dreaming which considers the world, thinks it, and dreams about something it lacks, something not existing(since its the vortex), then to fix the problem.  Those brain scientists are something like the equivalent of the kind public face of Mr. C/billionaires terror squad which goes around killing anyone who tries to dream, think, rationally relate to the world, have passions, stand for something, etc., while the ones who told you that you have 'no self' make everything their property.  Brain scientists will 'erase self' of people by force, connecting people to digital networks forcibly, tying them up like Johnny to watch a teddy bear(forcing brain onto digital network) while their own guys crush the dreams(programming and controlling the network and input into the brain) and like Richard, take the money for themselves, that is the dark underside of 'self is an illusion' being sold by the brain scientists, and its already happening today in reality, their self is their vicious dreams that emerge when they try to shoot the rational genunie dreams, they shoot your tulpa/blue rose dreams, while simultaneously engaging on a wild hallucinatory quest for their own self, like Mr. C.  Saying 'there is no self', thats over and done with, etc., is said by a self, it is the intervention of a self that crushes people's dreams and takes it for themselves, thats the underside of it, the attempt at the wholesale destruction of freedom and creativity that comes from the intervention of dreams with the world, brain science saying there is no self is like a move to slavery instead of freedom, right, justice, etc. No one  can just erase the 'centering' aspect of the void, the one, the dreamer, even though it is a void, it exists as 'non existence' as a dream of something not there.  The dreaming/dreamer is positively existing as nothing, as a dream to fix something that is positively lacking in the world. It exists as non-existence, notes problems, thinks them to itself, to the dreamer, which then spurs activity to address the problem....it is nothing, but from nothing comes something, as we have seen throughout the history of the physical universe(big bang, creation/destruction of nature's barbarity, etc.) and in the history of humans, where this 'nothing' is given freedom to exist as itself, as a positively existing dreamer that is 'nothing', has the freedom to rationalize a barbarous nature, to tend/garden it, like Freddie Sykes glove hints at.....

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Posted : 17/08/2017 3:25 pm
(@arcadesonfire)
Roadhouse Regular

David Lynch perhaps?

He has referenced many of his films this season, and both in this show and other works, he makes meta references to the audience. Since he is the master creator of the show and acting (living) in it, it might just be a reference about art and film auteurs. ????

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Posted : 17/08/2017 5:36 pm
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Charlie

Love the question, I think there are many answers!

Hi Charlie,

Yeah, about 7.4 billion of them!  😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

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Posted : 17/08/2017 6:08 pm
(@mj_gilbert)
Deputy
Posted by: Mirella Derks
Posted by: Roberto Bella
Posted by: severelyatomicmagazine
Posted by: Roberto Bella

I'm not sure the question of who the dreamer is will be 'answered.' It's sort of the big metaphysical question of all existence.

If the question WERE answered in the context of the show, that would be pretty trippy. But it might also be considered 'cheap,' as other shows have used this device, like "Dallas" with <Soft SPOILER> Bobby Ewing's fake death, and "St. Elsewhere" in which <SPOILER> the entire show is dreamt by an autistic character.

Yes. Unless the "answer" is that there's no single dreamer - instead we're all dreaming, and living within, our own dreams - which intersect (sometimes  or continuously)

All consciousness is a dream web spun by all beings. 

Whoa ? 

I like this. I've heard the concept expressed before similarly.

There's also the notion that we are all god, or rather fragments of god. So the inexplicable synchronicities many of us experience are reminders that we're all still connected, pieces of a fragmented whole trying to comprehend itself, or even eventually reassemble into a unified whole. At which point maybe the dream ends. Or begins anew.

There is this song that describes that we are all stardust and that we are golden. So yes we are all connected in some way. The universe looks like fragmented pieces spread out through space, always expanding. So probably we were once whole. And maybe that wholeness is God. 

My theory is this: If there is no single dreamer, than all of us watching the show maybe can become the dreamer. Especially if Mark Frost and David Lynch decide in a future episode to break the fourth wall.

Yes. WE are the dreamer. DL the inducer of dreams (the "dream lord" a la Doctor Who...)

I AM the FBI.

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Posted : 17/08/2017 6:23 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Ric Bissell
Posted by: Charlie

Love the question, I think there are many answers!

Hi Charlie,

Yeah, about 7.4 billion of them!  😉

- /< /\ /> -

If Mr. C/Billonaires succeed in 'shutting down' the red room/lodges access, killing people at coordinates, etc.,  we are reduced to the questions/interests of a small clique imposed on everyone, destruction/erasure of the self and freedom into a regulated digital network, controlled by a few 'programmers' mastering existence for their wild quest of profit/enjoyment, unable to act with proper rationality or passion since they try and fail repeatedly to shoot the blue rose tulpa, which turns to chaos..........thus the destruction of freedom/creativity/thought, lord and serf conditions, slow decay into chaos for all

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Posted : 17/08/2017 6:26 pm
KLynched liked
(@karen_paynter)
Deputy
Posted by: venus2275

Jeffries also said in the FWWM scene  'we are living in a dream.' The part with Cooper standing in front of the camera in the corridor, before Jeffries walks in was according to Engels to signify that we all have a doppelgänger that exists a few seconds after our main body. Cooper captured this in that scene. His doppelgänger. It hadnt been corrupted at that point though, although Jeffries didn't know that as time does not run in a linear fashion in the lodge. 

He said "we live inside a dream" reporting his experience in the other realm. 

Jeffries walks past him in the hallway as seen through the video monitor, indicating he didn't see him there.

Fire Walk With Me

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Posted : 18/08/2017 1:38 am
(@elad-repooc)
Roadhouse Regular

Pynchjan, that is an excellent Ted Talk. It's interesting what he says about how you completely disappear when you have a general anesthetic. This does kind of prove that consciousness is generated in the brain, and that once the brain dies we cease to exist. 

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Posted : 18/08/2017 2:43 am
(@myn0k)
Deputy

I don't think the comment can be taken literally.

We are like the dreamer - I.e., we create our own existence/life and we follow the threads, never knowing on a conscious level that we are creating our own reality. Our experience of life is akin to a simulation of our own creation. This is something that both spiritual texts and science have both toyed with for a long time. For the purely scientific types out there, look up the Holographic Principal and the Observer Effect - in short, the first suggests that what we perceive as three-dimensional space is in fact an illusion of the mind, while the second posits that one's existence is completely subjective from person to person, therefore there is actually very little objectivity one can rely on (consciousness has an impact on the quantum level). Both are scientifically measurable and also hold weight to spiritual thought/experiences that meditators often experience. I'm an action agnostic, I spend a lot of time seeking truth 🙂

Who is the dreamer? The obvious way to read the question is that we are being asked "which of us is dreaming and creating the reality?" However, another way of reading the question is "what defines a dreamer?" Or "what characteristics does a dreamer exhibit?" 

I.e. when we ask the question, we're not necessarily trying to answer who the individual personality is whom is dreaming. It can be a far more metaphysical/philosophical question being posed, which is how I took it. 

If I were to look at the question literally (which I don't), then to me the obvious answer is Laura Palmer (Laura is the one... who dreams). Or Charlie, who somehow suggests he has the power to change Audrey's story. 

I'll be very surprised if the whole "it's all someone's dream, and the dreamer was X all along" is the conclusion to the series. That's been done far too many times before for it to hold any weight. Instead, I think it more likely that Lynch/Frost are suggesting that multiple dimensions and individual consciousness are all entwined. But we shall see...

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Posted : 19/08/2017 4:43 am
Fever liked
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