So... Who's the dreamer?  

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(@becky-with-the-brown-hair)
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Audrey "too dreamy" Horne of course!

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Posted : 15/08/2017 4:59 am
(@pynchjan)
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Posted by: Chris Sampson

This is surely a vague, philosophical question that the series will not answer.  The underlying theory will not be explained.

In another sense, Chris, it is a clear and direct question, and the answer (awakening) experiences rather than theories or explanations (though these have to find their place as part of how we make sense of our experiences). Lynch is often a good guide.

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Posted : 15/08/2017 5:50 am
(@jocelyn)
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Posted by: Alex Franks

I think severelyatomicmagazine is basically right. David Lynch apparently uses this quote all the time. It's a quote from the Upanishads, which is the key book of Vedanta, which gets quoted quite often this days because of how it aligns surprisingly well with modern science, given that it's 2,500 years old. Basically it's about the idea that the entire universe is one seamless thing/process, and depending on the language used in translation this thing can be just the universe, or God, or in this case 'the dreamer'. It's saying the whole universe is one entity dreaming itself. So saying “Who is the dreamer?” (which isn't from the Upanishads) is like asking about the basic nature of reality.

 

So it might not have anything to do with the plot of Twin Peaks, but is just something Lynch thinks sounds cool. This might shed more light on it:

 

 

http://ask.metafilter.com/87182/David-Lynchs-spider

Sounds like Hegel too, the Absolute thinking itself. But these metaphysical explanations of reality have always been very unsatisfying. I am hoping the phrase used in Twin Peaks means something more specific.

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Posted : 15/08/2017 6:40 am
(@sycamoretrees)
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Am I the only one who thinks the dreamer is the New Mexico girl ? That would make Sarah a potential dreamer, wouldn't it ?

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Posted : 15/08/2017 11:10 am
(@roberto_bella)
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Posted by: severelyatomicmagazine
Posted by: Roberto Bella

I'm not sure the question of who the dreamer is will be 'answered.' It's sort of the big metaphysical question of all existence.

If the question WERE answered in the context of the show, that would be pretty trippy. But it might also be considered 'cheap,' as other shows have used this device, like "Dallas" with <Soft SPOILER> Bobby Ewing's fake death, and "St. Elsewhere" in which <SPOILER> the entire show is dreamt by an autistic character.

Yes. Unless the "answer" is that there's no single dreamer - instead we're all dreaming, and living within, our own dreams - which intersect (sometimes  or continuously)

All consciousness is a dream web spun by all beings. 

Whoa ? 

I like this. I've heard the concept expressed before similarly.

There's also the notion that we are all god, or rather fragments of god. So the inexplicable synchronicities many of us experience are reminders that we're all still connected, pieces of a fragmented whole trying to comprehend itself, or even eventually reassemble into a unified whole. At which point maybe the dream ends. Or begins anew.

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Posted : 15/08/2017 11:18 am
(@klynched)
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Posted by: pynchjan

 

I enjoyed that a lot. Very apposite!!! 

Perception and consciousness as "controlled hallucination". 

"We don't just passively perceive the world, we actively generate it".

"We are all hallucinating all the time... when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it reality."

 

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Posted : 15/08/2017 11:58 am
(@mirella)
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Posted by: Roberto Bella
Posted by: severelyatomicmagazine
Posted by: Roberto Bella

I'm not sure the question of who the dreamer is will be 'answered.' It's sort of the big metaphysical question of all existence.

If the question WERE answered in the context of the show, that would be pretty trippy. But it might also be considered 'cheap,' as other shows have used this device, like "Dallas" with <Soft SPOILER> Bobby Ewing's fake death, and "St. Elsewhere" in which <SPOILER> the entire show is dreamt by an autistic character.

Yes. Unless the "answer" is that there's no single dreamer - instead we're all dreaming, and living within, our own dreams - which intersect (sometimes  or continuously)

All consciousness is a dream web spun by all beings. 

Whoa ? 

I like this. I've heard the concept expressed before similarly.

There's also the notion that we are all god, or rather fragments of god. So the inexplicable synchronicities many of us experience are reminders that we're all still connected, pieces of a fragmented whole trying to comprehend itself, or even eventually reassemble into a unified whole. At which point maybe the dream ends. Or begins anew.

There is this song that describes that we are all stardust and that we are golden. So yes we are all connected in some way. The universe looks like fragmented pieces spread out through space, always expanding. So probably we were once whole. And maybe that wholeness is God. 

My theory is this: If there is no single dreamer, than all of us watching the show maybe can become the dreamer. Especially if Mark Frost and David Lynch decide in a future episode to break the fourth wall.

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Posted : 16/08/2017 7:39 am
(@ruskinowl)
Roadhouse Regular

So... Who's the dreamer? 

You - the dreamer within the dream, as suggested. YOU are pulling ALL of the strings. Simples.

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Posted : 16/08/2017 4:25 pm
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
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Posted by: Ruskinowl

So... Who's the dreamer? 

You - the dreamer within the dream, as suggested. YOU are pulling ALL of the strings. Simples.

Very nice, and its right, 'I think therefore I am', etc....But what is 'you', 'I', etc., when all life/attributes, how you see yourself, your thoughts and feelings, etc. is all just a dream by the dreamer? You are 'non-existent', nothing, empty, just the non-existing process of dreaming of something that does not exist, an embodied 'vortex' which violently cracks open the universe, its physical existence as well as your existence(people disappear when dreams crushed(dont talk about Judy, etc.)).  The dreamer, the one, the 'I'/'you', the 'centering force' etc. is not an existing entity which holds together a seamless universe, but something like a black hole which tears it apart, moves things around violently.  Then the 'dreamer'/'I', etc. as a 'centering force of nothing'  has freedom in existence as only the process of 'dreaming' alone, which does not exist since it is nothing, an embodied nothing: something that does not exist, since it is torn from existence, can dream of something better, something missing in reality and 'live this dream', it can become a reality, say by falling in true love, or creating a just and free society, both things that do not exist, but were dreamed and (maybe) brought about. 

  The mistake of Cooper in the 'old Philadelphia offices', the 'who that is there', was to believe that the dreamer existed, when he got so happy saying its 10:10 am, just like my dream, im living it; then he was the existing dreamer, this is when he split, dreams shattered. Cooper wanted a genunie community with justice that was not like Philadelphia, and wanted to find true love(make love to a beautiful woman I genuinely care about, etc.), his mistake was to take existence(factual positive reality) as a place where this dreamer could exist, settle down in Twin Peaks, he had found it, Cooper stopped dreamer and looked to positive reality to provide for his existence as the dreamer etc.. But as we know, there were many more mysteries to be solved(in fact he was failing in catching Laura's killer because of his 'quirky' love of twin peaks which blinded him to the underside), twin peaks was broken within by a vortex and had a nasty underside that needed more 'non existent' dreaming to fix it, dream of something better and seek it in the world/existence.  Once Cooper stopped dreaming after his dreams were crushed in the red room, he began looking to positive reality thinking that this is all there is, just accept it, he vanished and split into two incompatible version of a 'dreamer' who is trying to exist, relate to the world as it is as full and positive: Dougie is the one driven by all impulse, by everything happening in positive reality out there, is dominated by his surroundings; while Mr. C dominates his surroundings  in a desperate attempt to exist, to fully control the void/vortex/lodges/mother/Laura, etc., to put an end to dreaming once and for all, because his failed dreams, his 'blue rose' hurt him so much; Mr. C seeks to kill all dreaming(like freddy krueger killing people in their dreams) that is not his property, following the coordinates and eliminating anyone trying to contact the red room, lodges, etc., not allowing them room to move where he failed, and is still desperately trying to succeed, etc.  Nonetheless both Dougie and Mr. C are still dreaming, the world is still split and slowly decaying from within as time goes on and the violent repetitive natural decay sets in 'time and time again':  Mr. C and Dougie both believe in a passive hiding from dreaming, from going back to the blue rose tulpa that old agent cooper shot, going into reality and hiding from dreaming for salvation, where gaining full access to an angel laura(BOB) or 'wanting' and somehow obtaining the 'mother' and the vortex(controlling manifestations of the lodges like the billionaire) as if you could make nothing/vortex/void into property; or Dougie living 'viva las vegas', just endorsing the world and passively lurching around in it like a suburbanite zombie, then pretending this will somehow stop their slow decay and downfall, ending in death.... Reality, the world, needs  genuine dreaming to be worth living in, otherwise it is always disappointed, exploited, manipulated, disrespected, used as cheap, etc....ending in its destruction, back into vortex, return to the natural world, that is split all the way at the level of the atom(episode 8 and the atomic bomb), the tulpa and the blue rose do not fit nature, and this is a good thing, it is freedom........

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Posted : 17/08/2017 2:06 am
(@pynchjan)
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Posted : 17/08/2017 2:58 am
(@cyndeewillow)
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Posted by: KLynched
Posted by: pynchjan

 

I enjoyed that a lot. Very apposite!!! 

Perception and consciousness as "controlled hallucination". 

"We don't just passively perceive the world, we actively generate it".

"We are all hallucinating all the time... when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it reality."

 

Thank you for sharing the TED talk. I had never seen it and it's terrific. 
It's also a helpful tool for thinking about the effects of David Lynch's work, since so much of the power of it comes from disrupting OUR sense of prediction of narrative. The characters in The Return are continually challenged to create any kind of coherent narrative about themselves (Audrey's "What story is this Charlie?", Sarah's comment to Hawk about the "awful story" for example). You can see them struggling to predict their own reality--one of the reasons for all the long strange pauses that either annoy or delight viewers. Anilseth's discussions about how people experience their bodies could be relevant to discussions about Dougie and Jerry's wayward foot, among others.

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Posted : 17/08/2017 3:23 am
(@pynchjan)
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Posted by: cyndeewillow
Posted by: KLynched

 

Thank you for sharing the TED talk. I had never seen it and it's terrific. 
It's also a helpful tool for thinking about the effects of David Lynch's work, since so much of the power of it comes from disrupting OUR sense of prediction of narrative. The characters in The Return are continually challenged to create any kind of coherent narrative about themselves (Audrey's "What story is this Charlie?", Sarah's comment to Hawk about the "awful story" for example). You can see them struggling to predict their own reality--one of the reasons for all the long strange pauses that either annoy or delight viewers. Anilseth's discussions about how people experience their bodies could be relevant to discussions about Dougie and Jerry's wayward foot, among others.

Glad to hear KLynched & cyndeewillow. I'd take it even further; agreed, Anil Seth's TED provides resources for making sense of the TPTR viewing experience but, more importantly/revealingly, I'd argue that Seth & Lynch are addressing similar aspects of our existential situation/human nature (or whatever) with different tools. So, the pertinent issue is how their insights can help us to understand our self-world, & finding happiness in insight (values), better. TPTR is after all just a TV series.     

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Posted : 17/08/2017 4:20 am
(@lucas_bracci)
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Posted by: stwallskull

Maybe the dreamer is the audience?

This is one show where the cliche "it was all just a dream" would actually be satisfying. Yes, it was all just a dream... but isn't everything?

The dreamer and his magic wand :

 

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Posted : 17/08/2017 11:50 am
(@agent-cooper)
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The dreamer is Jerrys foot. Who hasn't had their foot fall asleep?

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Posted : 17/08/2017 11:55 am
(@charlie)
Roadhouse Regular

Love the question, I think there are many answers!

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Posted : 17/08/2017 12:08 pm
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