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(@yambag021)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Fishinthepercolator
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Chris Gorgon
Posted by: The conversation is lively

It's like I've gone to a franchised RR Diner and the cherry pie is filled with cheap ingredients. 

It's interesting to me that you'd use that analogy.  Beyond the obvious cultural criticism being expressed in that scene, I wondered if it was also a commentary on Lynch's relationship with executives.  

 

Imagine the guy across from Norma as some generic studio exec talking to Lynch. I'm sure a more nostalgic, traditional take on TP wouldn't have been so divisive for the fan base (i.e. more consistent and profitable).  But Lynch only knows how to make his 'pies' one way, and his fans seem to like them that way, and so he doesn't really see the issue.    

I think the majority of fans like lynchs pie with a splash of corporate to it (season 1 is easily the best imo), season 2 took a hit from the network telling him to hurry it up, and 3 is like that company that tries too hard to "change up" something that was fine.

That might be true but what if that thing that WAS fine (then) might not be fine anymore (now)? I'm perfectly sure Blockbuster and its model were more than fine, yet because they thought it was just fine and it was pointless to change it there's no such thing as Blockbuster anymore.

That's an awful comparison.

I think the network helped give rails to lynch to keep him progressing the story without going way too far into left field (aka Mulholland drive/Eraserhead territory).

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/08/2017 10:06 pm
(@groovy-llama-fan)
Dweller

There is a gulf of difference between Lynch fans and TP fans. I would take a guess that the latter group is more numerous and has more mainstream, albeit high brow/prestige TV/limited arthouse tastes. When this new show was greenlit, the TP fans understandably thought that it would cater to them. Clearly Showtime execs must've thought so too before Lynch rebelled, the channel caved and this production ended up catering to the hardcore Lynch fans instead.

I feel like this is where the essence of the conflict in opinions between the viewers comes from. The TP group feels royally ripped off because they don't like unfiltered Lynch and this was marketed as a continuation of TP, NOT a new Lynch film. I'm very much in this group. If I wanted classic Lynch, I would've seen the rest of his movies, not invested so much fan energy into TP and hoped for more of it. I liked this ep the most because it is the closest to original TP this season has delivered thus far. I rate ep. 8 the lowest because it is pure unfiltered Lynch, which I can only handle in moderate doses and most certainly NOT in the middle of what is supposed to be a TP run.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 6:04 am
(@steve_moss)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: groovy-llama-fan

There is a gulf of difference between Lynch fans and TP fans. I would take a guess that the latter group is more numerous and has more mainstream, albeit high brow/prestige TV/limited arthouse tastes. When this new show was greenlit, the TP fans understandably thought that it would cater to them. Clearly Showtime execs must've thought so too before Lynch rebelled, the channel caved and this production ended up catering to the hardcore Lynch fans instead.

I feel like this is where the essence of the conflict in opinions between the viewers comes from. The TP group feels royally ripped off because they don't like unfiltered Lynch and this was marketed as a continuation of TP, NOT a new Lynch film. I'm very much in this group. If I wanted classic Lynch, I would've seen the rest of his movies, not invested so much fan energy into TP and hoped for more of it. I liked this ep the most because it is the closest to original TP this season has delivered thus far. I rate ep. 8 the lowest because it is pure unfiltered Lynch, which I can only handle in moderate doses and most certainly NOT in the middle of what is supposed to be a TP run.

If you don't like the work of David Lynch, it stands to reason you'll not appreciate the 18 hour long continuation which he directed and co-wrote. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 6:39 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Fishinthepercolator
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Chris Gorgon
Posted by: The conversation is lively

It's like I've gone to a franchised RR Diner and the cherry pie is filled with cheap ingredients. 

It's interesting to me that you'd use that analogy.  Beyond the obvious cultural criticism being expressed in that scene, I wondered if it was also a commentary on Lynch's relationship with executives.  

 

Imagine the guy across from Norma as some generic studio exec talking to Lynch. I'm sure a more nostalgic, traditional take on TP wouldn't have been so divisive for the fan base (i.e. more consistent and profitable).  But Lynch only knows how to make his 'pies' one way, and his fans seem to like them that way, and so he doesn't really see the issue.    

I think the majority of fans like lynchs pie with a splash of corporate to it (season 1 is easily the best imo), season 2 took a hit from the network telling him to hurry it up, and 3 is like that company that tries too hard to "change up" something that was fine.

That might be true but what if that thing that WAS fine (then) might not be fine anymore (now)? I'm perfectly sure Blockbuster and its model were more than fine, yet because they thought it was just fine and it was pointless to change it there's no such thing as Blockbuster anymore.

That's an awful comparison.

I think the network helped give rails to lynch to keep him progressing the story without going way too far into left field (aka Mulholland drive/Eraserhead territory).

 

 

I find it odd that you chose Eraserhead and Mullholand Drive to support your argument. 

Eraserhead has not only gained acclaim as time has moved forward but was chosen by the Libray of Congress for preservation due to "cultural, historical, or aesthetic significance." 

Mulholland Drive while polar in acclaim rendered Lynch an Academy Award nomination for direction. 

Not that big a deal, really, in the grander scheme, but . . . 

It's clear to me: the less he caters to the masses the better his work both in terms of artistic merit and significance. He really does not care if his vision is accepted by the masses. He just wants to manifest his vision, unaltered, no matter how it is accepted. It's accepted by some? Great. Vehemently rejected by others? Great. Catering to Twin Peaks fans, but not  fans of Lynch, would've been a compromise. He's not telling an idealized tale of reminiscence here, he's injecting reality into it. Some can't handle that. I get it. Escapism is a money draw. I've been known to dip my toe in its waters from time to time. That's not the tale that Lynch and Frost want to to tell though. It's sorta like acquiescing to executives to make more money. Not really his intention and he regrets ever having done it. Some enjoyed that compromise and are here today viewing a show that they don't enjoy. Kool. He enjoys mystery and playing with expectation, not reliving regrets. 

Now, what about the one, single, episode of a television show that is cut up into 18 parts of which we have only seen 13 . . . 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 7:09 am
(@yambag021)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Steve Moss
Posted by: groovy-llama-fan

There is a gulf of difference between Lynch fans and TP fans. I would take a guess that the latter group is more numerous and has more mainstream, albeit high brow/prestige TV/limited arthouse tastes. When this new show was greenlit, the TP fans understandably thought that it would cater to them. Clearly Showtime execs must've thought so too before Lynch rebelled, the channel caved and this production ended up catering to the hardcore Lynch fans instead.

I feel like this is where the essence of the conflict in opinions between the viewers comes from. The TP group feels royally ripped off because they don't like unfiltered Lynch and this was marketed as a continuation of TP, NOT a new Lynch film. I'm very much in this group. If I wanted classic Lynch, I would've seen the rest of his movies, not invested so much fan energy into TP and hoped for more of it. I liked this ep the most because it is the closest to original TP this season has delivered thus far. I rate ep. 8 the lowest because it is pure unfiltered Lynch, which I can only handle in moderate doses and most certainly NOT in the middle of what is supposed to be a TP run.

If you don't like the work of David Lynch, it stands to reason you'll not appreciate the 18 hour long continuation which he directed and co-wrote. 

 

There's two groups of people. watching this show imo.

Twin peaks fans

Lynch fanS.

 

Peaks fans, want to see...Wait for it...Twin peaks.

 

Lynch fans, oggle over the french girl scene regardless of its context or if it has one ounce to do with the show or not. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 7:55 am
(@yambag021)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Caoimhín Shirey
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Fishinthepercolator
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Chris Gorgon
Posted by: The conversation is lively

It's like I've gone to a franchised RR Diner and the cherry pie is filled with cheap ingredients. 

It's interesting to me that you'd use that analogy.  Beyond the obvious cultural criticism being expressed in that scene, I wondered if it was also a commentary on Lynch's relationship with executives.  

 

Imagine the guy across from Norma as some generic studio exec talking to Lynch. I'm sure a more nostalgic, traditional take on TP wouldn't have been so divisive for the fan base (i.e. more consistent and profitable).  But Lynch only knows how to make his 'pies' one way, and his fans seem to like them that way, and so he doesn't really see the issue.    

I think the majority of fans like lynchs pie with a splash of corporate to it (season 1 is easily the best imo), season 2 took a hit from the network telling him to hurry it up, and 3 is like that company that tries too hard to "change up" something that was fine.

That might be true but what if that thing that WAS fine (then) might not be fine anymore (now)? I'm perfectly sure Blockbuster and its model were more than fine, yet because they thought it was just fine and it was pointless to change it there's no such thing as Blockbuster anymore.

That's an awful comparison.

I think the network helped give rails to lynch to keep him progressing the story without going way too far into left field (aka Mulholland drive/Eraserhead territory).

 

 

I find it odd that you chose Eraserhead and Mullholand Drive to support your argument. 

Eraserhead has not only gained acclaim as time has moved forward but was chosen by the Libray of Congress for preservation due to "cultural, historical, or aesthetic significance." 

Mulholland Drive while polar in acclaim rendered Lynch an Academy Award nomination for direction. 

Not that big a deal, really, in the grander scheme, but . . . 

It's clear to me: the less he caters to the masses the better his work both in terms of artistic merit and significance. He really does not care if his vision is accepted by the masses. He just wants to manifest his vision, unaltered, no matter how it is accepted. It's accepted by some? Great. Vehemently rejected by others? Great. Catering to Twin Peaks fans, but not  fans of Lynch, would've been a compromise. He's not telling an idealized tale of reminiscence here, he's injecting reality into it. Some can't handle that. I get it. Escapism is a money draw. I've been known to dip my toe in its waters from time to time. That's not the tale that Lynch and Frost want to to tell though. It's sorta like acquiescing to executives to make more money. Not really his intention and he regrets ever having done it. Some enjoyed that compromise and are here today viewing a show that they don't enjoy. Kool. He enjoys mystery and playing with expectation, not reliving regrets. 

Now, what about the one, single, episode of a television show that is cut up into 18 parts of which we have only seen 13 . . . 

I aplologize in advance for the harshness of this statement, but I'm tired of people acting like lynch is Michelangelo and he is painting the Sistine chapel of tv. Many people want to watch a tv show and be entertained/Challenged/watch twin peaks.

I'm so over the "this is art" thing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 7:58 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Caoimhín Shirey
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Fishinthepercolator
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Chris Gorgon
Posted by: The conversation is lively

It's like I've gone to a franchised RR Diner and the cherry pie is filled with cheap ingredients. 

It's interesting to me that you'd use that analogy.  Beyond the obvious cultural criticism being expressed in that scene, I wondered if it was also a commentary on Lynch's relationship with executives.  

 

Imagine the guy across from Norma as some generic studio exec talking to Lynch. I'm sure a more nostalgic, traditional take on TP wouldn't have been so divisive for the fan base (i.e. more consistent and profitable).  But Lynch only knows how to make his 'pies' one way, and his fans seem to like them that way, and so he doesn't really see the issue.    

I think the majority of fans like lynchs pie with a splash of corporate to it (season 1 is easily the best imo), season 2 took a hit from the network telling him to hurry it up, and 3 is like that company that tries too hard to "change up" something that was fine.

That might be true but what if that thing that WAS fine (then) might not be fine anymore (now)? I'm perfectly sure Blockbuster and its model were more than fine, yet because they thought it was just fine and it was pointless to change it there's no such thing as Blockbuster anymore.

That's an awful comparison.

I think the network helped give rails to lynch to keep him progressing the story without going way too far into left field (aka Mulholland drive/Eraserhead territory).

 

 

I find it odd that you chose Eraserhead and Mullholand Drive to support your argument. 

Eraserhead has not only gained acclaim as time has moved forward but was chosen by the Libray of Congress for preservation due to "cultural, historical, or aesthetic significance." 

Mulholland Drive while polar in acclaim rendered Lynch an Academy Award nomination for direction. 

Not that big a deal, really, in the grander scheme, but . . . 

It's clear to me: the less he caters to the masses the better his work both in terms of artistic merit and significance. He really does not care if his vision is accepted by the masses. He just wants to manifest his vision, unaltered, no matter how it is accepted. It's accepted by some? Great. Vehemently rejected by others? Great. Catering to Twin Peaks fans, but not  fans of Lynch, would've been a compromise. He's not telling an idealized tale of reminiscence here, he's injecting reality into it. Some can't handle that. I get it. Escapism is a money draw. I've been known to dip my toe in its waters from time to time. That's not the tale that Lynch and Frost want to to tell though. It's sorta like acquiescing to executives to make more money. Not really his intention and he regrets ever having done it. Some enjoyed that compromise and are here today viewing a show that they don't enjoy. Kool. He enjoys mystery and playing with expectation, not reliving regrets. 

Now, what about the one, single, episode of a television show that is cut up into 18 parts of which we have only seen 13 . . . 

I aplologize in advance for the harshness of this statement, but I'm tired of people acting like lynch is Michelangelo and he is painting the Sistine chapel of tv. Many people want to watch a tv show and be entertained/Challenged/watch twin peaks.

I'm so over the "this is art" thing.

No apologies necessary. To each his/her own. I, personally, don't spend time entertaining things I don't enjoy. It seems that some do. It's their life not mine.  

Lynch is Michelangelo? Any evidence that that has been suggested? Meanwhile, what does Michelangelo secretly posses that Lynch doesn't? It's not like Michelangelo is some perfect artist or human. He was a man that saw things differently than those in his time. He was a visionary, not someone to be coddled. He was basically telling those who hired him to fuck off through his work. He is held in high regard for his penchant for rebellion as well as his technicle execution. 

Sound familiar? 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 8:21 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

I don't care if it's art, or not.  In fact, define "art".

I enjoy it, I'm entertained by it and I'll watch until the end.  Even if I don't enjoy the last few episodes (doubtful) I'll watch anyhow to see how it ends.

All you ever get from me is my honest opinion.  I'm not interested in defending Lynch, I have no emotional investment in the show and I don't seek validation via the approval of others.

If someone doesn't like it, that's fine; everyone should make their own decisions.  Just never call me blind, blinkered, uncritical or a fan boy.  I'm too old and cynical - and I dare say smart - to be any of the above.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 8:29 am
(@yambag021)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Caoimhín Shirey
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Caoimhín Shirey
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Fishinthepercolator
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Chris Gorgon
Posted by: The conversation is lively

It's like I've gone to a franchised RR Diner and the cherry pie is filled with cheap ingredients. 

It's interesting to me that you'd use that analogy.  Beyond the obvious cultural criticism being expressed in that scene, I wondered if it was also a commentary on Lynch's relationship with executives.  

 

Imagine the guy across from Norma as some generic studio exec talking to Lynch. I'm sure a more nostalgic, traditional take on TP wouldn't have been so divisive for the fan base (i.e. more consistent and profitable).  But Lynch only knows how to make his 'pies' one way, and his fans seem to like them that way, and so he doesn't really see the issue.    

I think the majority of fans like lynchs pie with a splash of corporate to it (season 1 is easily the best imo), season 2 took a hit from the network telling him to hurry it up, and 3 is like that company that tries too hard to "change up" something that was fine.

That might be true but what if that thing that WAS fine (then) might not be fine anymore (now)? I'm perfectly sure Blockbuster and its model were more than fine, yet because they thought it was just fine and it was pointless to change it there's no such thing as Blockbuster anymore.

That's an awful comparison.

I think the network helped give rails to lynch to keep him progressing the story without going way too far into left field (aka Mulholland drive/Eraserhead territory).

 

 

I find it odd that you chose Eraserhead and Mullholand Drive to support your argument. 

Eraserhead has not only gained acclaim as time has moved forward but was chosen by the Libray of Congress for preservation due to "cultural, historical, or aesthetic significance." 

Mulholland Drive while polar in acclaim rendered Lynch an Academy Award nomination for direction. 

Not that big a deal, really, in the grander scheme, but . . . 

It's clear to me: the less he caters to the masses the better his work both in terms of artistic merit and significance. He really does not care if his vision is accepted by the masses. He just wants to manifest his vision, unaltered, no matter how it is accepted. It's accepted by some? Great. Vehemently rejected by others? Great. Catering to Twin Peaks fans, but not  fans of Lynch, would've been a compromise. He's not telling an idealized tale of reminiscence here, he's injecting reality into it. Some can't handle that. I get it. Escapism is a money draw. I've been known to dip my toe in its waters from time to time. That's not the tale that Lynch and Frost want to to tell though. It's sorta like acquiescing to executives to make more money. Not really his intention and he regrets ever having done it. Some enjoyed that compromise and are here today viewing a show that they don't enjoy. Kool. He enjoys mystery and playing with expectation, not reliving regrets. 

Now, what about the one, single, episode of a television show that is cut up into 18 parts of which we have only seen 13 . . . 

I aplologize in advance for the harshness of this statement, but I'm tired of people acting like lynch is Michelangelo and he is painting the Sistine chapel of tv. Many people want to watch a tv show and be entertained/Challenged/watch twin peaks.

I'm so over the "this is art" thing.

No apologies necessary. To each his/her own. I, personally, don't spend time entertaining things I don't enjoy. It seems that some do. It's their life not mine.  

Lynch is Michelangelo? Any evidence that that has been suggested? Meanwhile, what does Michelangelo secretly posses that Lynch doesn't? It's not like Michelangelo is some perfect artist or human. He was a man that saw things differently than those in his time. He was a visionary, not someone to be coddled. He was basically telling those who hired him to fuck off through his work. He is held in high regard for his penchant for rebellion as well as his technicle execution. 

Sound familiar? 

 

You're reading far too much into the Michelangelo reference.

 

I simply grabbed an artists name off the top of my head.

 

And I'm sorry, some of the stuff garnering "brilliant art" comments for lynch in this season is more like the a strict art that can be confused for a pile of cans in the street than something beautiful that Michelangelo painted.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 8:30 am
(@mad-sweeney)
Roadhouse Regular

Why can't people be allowed to gripe in peace? You don't see critics entering praise threads to crap on Lynch and harsh fans' buzz. Critics politely start a separate gripe thread for that which invariably brings in Lynch fans who proceed to invalidate their feelings toward the show. It's not cool. Just let people gripe if they want to gripe.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 9:24 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective

I simply ask of the analogy, what is art? Define it. End an eons-long discussion. How is Michelangelo's work different from a pile of cans in the street? Provide another name of an artist and I'll draw a similar conclusion.  I have an art degree and have studied art theory and the philosophy of aesthetics. Go ahead explain the difference to me. Point out what I'm missing. Twin Peaks the Return is far removed from what we discussed and dissected in class every day. Not even close. But, it's mainstream so some folks have an expectation. An aside, I've also seen a lot of, "the emperor wears no clothes" crap being disseminated (you keep using that phrase, I do not think it means what you think it means) by detractors. I've yet to receive a reply to my initial response to their "critiques" that is meaningful. Criticism is helpful and encouraged, but the same constant vacuous complaints aren't. Pacing , time jumps, confusion, mystery? Please. 

Season 3 isn't about fan service, it's about a septuagenarian artist realizing his (and Frost's) vision. If old fans enjoy it, then great. If some of those old fans hate it, doesn't matter, the work is finished. It's a gift. It's a continuation of a story through the filter of eyes that are aged 25+ more years. Is it perfect? No, but I'm enjoying the journey and discussions that follow due to a week-to-week format. What I don't enjoy is the same rehashed complaints from parts 1 and 2 in the discussion forum for part 13. 

I realize that you have "backtracked" after episode 12. You enjoyed episode 13 more and it instilled some encouragement in you going forward. Great. That's what competent artists can do to their patrons.  I'm not picking on you. It's nothing personal. Just trying to understand and relate to the position you hold. 

I had no expectation that the Return was going to be anything like the first two seasons. I predicted that it was going to be darker and more violent, Perhaps that is why I'm not as offended as some are. I signed up for a journey that I hadn't been on. That's what I'm receiving. Bravo. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 9:35 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective
Posted by: James M Sweeney

Why can't people be allowed to gripe in peace? You don't see critics entering praise threads to crap on Lynch and harsh fans' buzz. Critics politely start a separate gripe thread for that which invariably brings in Lynch fans who proceed to invalidate their feelings toward the show. It's not cool. Just let people gripe if they want to gripe.

Huh? Gripe in peace? Earth, have you visited and interacted with humans?

Perhaps making an exclusive forum for detractors is in your future. A place where dissent is banned. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 9:39 am
(@yambag021)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Caoimhín Shirey

I simply ask of the analogy, what is art? Define it. End an eons-long discussion. How is Michelangelo's work different from a pile of cans in the street? Provide another name of an artist and I'll draw a similar conclusion.  I have an art degree and have studied art theory and the philosophy of aesthetics. Go ahead explain the difference to me. Point out what I'm missing. Twin Peaks the Return is far removed from what we discussed and dissected in class every day. Not even close. But, it's mainstream so some folks have an expectation. An aside, I've also seen a lot of, "the emperor wears no clothes" crap being disseminated (you keep using that phrase, I do not think it means what you think it means) by detractors. I've yet to receive a reply to my initial response to their "critiques" that is meaningful. Criticism is helpful and encouraged, but the same constant vacuous complaints aren't. Pacing , time jumps, confusion, mystery? Please. 

Season 3 isn't about fan service, it's about a septuagenarian artist realizing his (and Frost's) vision. If old fans enjoy it, then great. If some of those old fans hate it, doesn't matter, the work is finished. It's a gift. It's a continuation of a story through the filter of eyes that are aged 25+ more years. Is it perfect? No, but I'm enjoying the journey and discussions that follow due to a week-to-week format. What I don't enjoy is the same rehashed complaints from parts 1 and 2 in the discussion forum for part 13. 

I realize that you have "backtracked" after episode 12. You enjoyed episode 13 more and it instilled some encouragement in you going forward. Great. That's what competent artists can do to their patrons.  I'm not picking on you. It's nothing personal. Just trying to understand and relate to the position you hold. 

I had no expectation that the Return was going to be anything like the first two seasons. I predicted that it was going to be darker and more violent, Perhaps that is why I'm not as offended as some are. I signed up for a journey that I hadn't been on. That's what I'm receiving. Bravo. 

I will say bluntly I'm amazed at people who say "I didn't think season 3 would be like 1-2".

 

In regards to the freedom he has being on cable I get.

But to sit back and act like a show that's a season three and has the tagline "it's happening again" WOULDN'T be like seasons 1-2, just makes no sense, to me at least.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 9:51 am
(@yambag021)
RR Diner Patron

I also didn't backtrack. This season has been more boring than exciting. Too much lame scenes catering to guys in sweaters drinking boxed wine than people who are looking for a story to chew on imo.

My comment on episode 13 is it seems the pace is seeming to pick up and frankly what I've waited for seems like it's starting to happen.

I'm over the whole "art" convo. I want to talk plotlines, what's happening, and what will happen. Not sit in a dark room with blackout shades, burning incense, and talking about how the entertainment center Sarah's tv sits on affected my emotions on a sub nuclear level.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 9:55 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective

In my defense I put "backtracked" in quotes. I understood that the wording wasn't precise. I'm not really here to defend the show. That's not what interests me. I'm here to discuss topics of interest. That's mostly what I do. I defend when I feel the urge, that is all. I felt the need in this thread and so it happened.  Like I stated previously, nothing personal. You seem earnest. We simply disagree. There are tons and tons of threads discussing plots and predictions. This isn't one of them. Hope to see you in other threads. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2017 10:09 am
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