A bit of criticism (sorry)  

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(@the-conversation-is-lively)
RR Diner Patron

opinions my own.

 

Episode 11, the zone. C’mon, that spiral in the sky was typical of how poor this show can be at times. That was like some A-Level media studies student using After Effects. I’m not talking about the poor quality of the image, I’m talking about the poor quality of imagination here. Lynch is usually so inventive when it comes to describing strange events. This was the kind of straight out of the box portal that you’d expect from crap like Stargate-SG1 or what ever formulaic tv sci-fi stuff circulates in the DVD bargain bin.

And what about the Red Room turning up in the cake shop in a corporate square in broad daylight. The Red Room is supposed to be an menacing, esoteric hinter-world. It’s terrifying, highly coded, hidden in the depths of the woods. You can’t just have apparitions of it in the sunny business lunch atrium like it was some spirt world pop-up shop.

Episode 11 has some of the tonally best moments in The Return so far, but definitely also some of the worst! Stuff like this could easily completely destroy the iconography and legacy of the show – and it leaves me wondering how well this stuff is going to age once the hype is all over.

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Posted : 25/07/2017 2:21 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular

I sort of liked this approach, since it seems to be an attempt to integrate this infinite excess(red room, portals, etc.) into everyday reality and ontological/physical existence/being(atomic bomb, vortex, cuts in reality, etc.). For example, I believe they are trying to incorporate atomic/blast, no stars, no atoms, cuts in all of reality that lead to pain/fire excess, etc. into all of reality, that reality does not exist.  They are sort of generalizing ideas they had in undeveloped forms in the old twin peaks, and I think its a proper maturation of the idea...the infinite or radical can be in something as simple and finite as buying a pie or drinking coffee, etc., depends on the social reality etc., not just all about brutality... In the original twin peaks we only had dreams and intuition, now this whole idea of an excessive infinite that must be dealt with in finite reality is much more developed, and I think it is correctly done that he tried to generalize this in all of reality and generalized BOB with the woodsmen......imo it was a mistake in the first series to talk of BOB, etc. as they were sort of single entities, this stuff is definitely everywhere and cannot be ignored

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Posted : 25/07/2017 2:37 am
(@myn0k)
Deputy

I think only Coop can see the red Room. It's manifesting for him, not for everyone to see. 

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with the portal. I quite liked the way Cole started flashing in and out until Albert grabbed him, and the windy-like effect that only affected Cole. And it could have been worse - could have been a multimillion dollar super CGI fest!

In the original series, we just had a fade in and fade out when someone entered the lodge. I thought it was nice to see some sort of gateway. 

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Posted : 25/07/2017 2:37 am
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron

I expect (possibly just because I like and enjoy it so much) Lynch tacky, mixed-media aesthetic/iconography (as opposed to the upper-end photo-realistic or even avant-garde) will age very well. It takes me right back to Eraserhead and Elephant Man (very dated, very "new"). I take this to be part of the charm, of a kind of sophisticated naivete that also appears in Lynch's treatment of things spiritual/mystical (supported by Frost's interest in conspiracy), film references, undermining of psychological and film conventional realism, and his engagement with the everyday (spectators at the hit and run, slot machine sequences, kids shooting guns). I don't think Lynch is into the "highly coded" (and appreciate that this seems like a strange comment).   

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Posted : 25/07/2017 2:38 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Myn0k

I think only Coop can see the red Room. It's manifesting for him, not for everyone to see. 

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with the portal. I quite liked the way Cole started flashing in and out until Albert grabbed him, and the windy-like effect that only affected Cole. And it could have been worse - could have been a multimillion dollar super CGI fest!

In the original series, we just had a fade in and fade out when someone entered the lodge. I thought it was nice to see some sort of gateway. 

I think this dangerous and important connection to the infinite in the finite is different for everyone, based on their dreams, etc.  The red room is sort of how cooper imagines the infinite in dispersed fragments, with Laura, his 'gum style' of the music, etc......so if Cooper went to far in his desire(for Laura, twin peaks,  etc.) he would go behind the red curtains.  Cole on the other had had that atomic bomb picture,  his dreams/imagination, etc., so his access to this dangerous connection of the infinite in finite reality is represented by more 'physics stuff', cuts in reality, vortex, stars, etc.  Mitchums had their own dreams, etc....I am taking it to go like this....

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Posted : 25/07/2017 2:41 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: pynchjan

 I don't think Lynch is into the "highly coded" (and appreciate that this seems like a strange comment).   

I agree mostly, but I think the reference to everyday reality are hooks for ordinary people that lead into the 'highly coded' and the 'absurd forces of existence'.....thereby giving everyday people the proper impact of the excessive existence of a proper human, one who has access to the infinite in the finite, forced to hit the red room/lodges, but cannot every successfully complete this, thereby always has pain and excess that it cant avoid and must properly deal with, etc.

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Posted : 25/07/2017 2:44 am
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
Posted by: pynchjan

 I don't think Lynch is into the "highly coded" (and appreciate that this seems like a strange comment).   

I agree mostly, but I think the reference to everyday reality are hooks for ordinary people that lead into the 'highly coded' and the 'absurd forces of existence'.....thereby giving everyday people the proper impact of the excessive existence of a proper human, one who has access to the infinite in the finite, forced to hit the red room/lodges, but cannot every successfully complete this, thereby always has pain and excess that it cant avoid and must properly deal with, etc.

I'm one of those "ordinary people" that often finds the "absurd forces of existence" (and being at their mercy so often) absurdly obvious (hidden in plain sight, if hidden at all), not too difficult to notice, even grasp, but all but impossible to be aware/reminded of moment-by-moment (because most of us have to deal with fairly complex practical things so much of the time). Over a lifetime, Red Room/Lodge-like experiences of "pain and excess" are unavoidable, all the more intense/excessive when they're rare. So, agreed (if this is part of your point), our existential situation/predicament cannot be "successfully completed" or "properly dealt with," and Lynch can help us appreciate this.   

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Posted : 25/07/2017 3:04 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: pynchjan

I'm one of those "ordinary people" that often finds the "absurd forces of existence" absurdly obvious, not too difficult to notice, even grasp, but all but impossible to be aware/reminded of moment-by-moment

I really have to disagree here, with all due civility........these things are necessarily impossible to grasp based on the way thinking/language/physics-being function, if they were easily grasped there would be no excess or pain, no production of new knowledge, etc., we would just be autonomous computers running automatically, and know everything already, etc.  This impossibility is inscribed into reality in twin peaks(much like quantum flux in physics, where in sub-atomic reality there is nothing to grasp, just an inconsistent mess that is impossible to grasp) and this is represented by Lynch in splitting of the atom/reality and inscribing this non-reality that is impossible to grasp in everyday existence...This is unconscious(where psychoanalysis and physics coincide), there is an atomic split inside of everyone, a traumatic cut that is impossible to deal with, thus it is necessarily hidden and cannot be known, it is 'unconscious',  coded in layers of language that appear as highly coded fantasy meant as defense mechanisms and reactions against, and dealing with, trauma the 'no stars' nothingness....So there is no reality that is solid but all reality is caught up in 'instruments' fictions, fantasy that attempt to deal with the fact that there are 'no stars', just like the 'quantum flux' is an impossible nothing until it appears to some form of observation or measurement, there is no simple reality, but a basic disconnect between our instruments/fantasy and 'reality' out-there that can never be bridged, thus the fire, pain, but also surplus in dealing with this;   this disconnect thus leads to reference to an infinite in the finite, the finite is never whole it is not basically atom, but an inconsistent flux, thus our 'measuring' of it is involved in its creation, thus reference to the infinite, that 'everyone has part of God in them', etc...we have to reference the infinite in relation/language because of this disconnect, it forces the pain and dealing with infinite impossibility which drive to forming reality itself(for example, our politics, economic, fantasy about what we are doing, ignoring problems etc., basic stupidity can end all life on the planet via atomic war, greenhouse, etc., it all depends on how we measure and its disconnect from 'factual exactitude', cannot get too far away from exactitude either, or it becomes arbitrary and tyranny.....)

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Posted : 25/07/2017 3:18 am
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron

Paraphrase in civil disobedience, Murat. Viva pluralism!

"there is no simple reality, but a basic disconnect between our instruments/fantasy and 'reality' out-there that can never be bridged, thus the fire, pain"

"I'm one of those "ordinary people" that often finds the "absurd forces of existence" (and being at their mercy so often) absurdly obvious (hidden in plain sight, if hidden at all), not too difficult to notice, even grasp, but all but impossible to be aware/reminded of moment-by-moment." So, reality is pretty simple (we're in it right now, most of us rising to its challenges pretty well most of the time), but it would be a mistake to reduce reality to our instruments/representations of it/to its "out-there" aspects. Thus the fire/pain is most intense for anyone at either extreme end: that doesn't appreciate that in some sense things are not what they seem or those that can't find a wide bridge back to the truth of the everyday.

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Posted : 25/07/2017 3:48 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

I sort of agree with the OP but take pynchjan's point that some of it is "Deliberately tacky".  There's always been this sort of approach in Lynch's stuff, for example, the totally rubbish animatronic bird at the end of Blue Velvet; in fact, the whole hokey, "American as Apple Pie" feeling to the end, after the Uber Noir feel of the rest of the movie.

Laura's apparition in the previous episode and some of the other FX throughout the show have been shoddy, and I have to think they must have been made that way deliberately, since there are plenty of others that are slick, polished, and due to their quality, almost invisible as FX.

I often have the feeling Lynch and Frost are using us to tell the story, as much as the on screen action is being used.  Many artists claim their work is only half of it; the real statement, story or whatever happens with the interaction between their creation and the viewer.  Maybe that's what's happening here; you're supposed to think it's tacky, amateurish, shoddy and so on.  Sometimes, because of that, it becomes more jarring, and because of that, it has a bigger impact than a really slick, ultra realistic rendition.

Or maybe they're just taking the piss.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 25/07/2017 4:06 am
(@murat_erol_ozkan)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: pynchjan

Paraphrase in civil disobedience, Murat. Viva pluralism!

"there is no simple reality, but a basic disconnect between our instruments/fantasy and 'reality' out-there that can never be bridged, thus the fire, pain"

"I'm one of those "ordinary people" that often finds the "absurd forces of existence" (and being at their mercy so often) absurdly obvious (hidden in plain sight, if hidden at all), not too difficult to notice, even grasp, but all but impossible to be aware/reminded of moment-by-moment." So, reality is pretty simple (we're in it right now, most of us rising to its challenges pretty well most of the time), but it would be a mistake to reduce reality to our instruments/representations of it/to its "out-there" aspects. Thus the fire/pain is most intense for anyone at either extreme end: that doesn't appreciate that in some sense things are not what they seem or those that can't find a wide bridge back to the truth of the everyday.

Definitely a sort of 'pluralism' is at work, and this sort of seperation is a necessary condition for any basic freedom, the basic freedom to possess your own brain, be the only one who moves in it, to have some basic space and privacy, etc. without this, possessing your own body etc., you are immediately in slavery, all rights (to speech etc. are non-existent, you are not even a prisoner, but a slave whose realization in physical reality and body is controlled by someone else).  Also 'pluralism'/separation of fantasy is basic, no way to get past this, what is infinite, universal, etc. has to come from inside the person, how they relate to antagonisms in reality is something intimate and private, the most brutal thing to do would be to take this from someone, deny them this struggle,etc.  Forced immersion into the digital network is slavery, no way around that...

But there is also the other aspect, 'universal spirit'/law/natural background, etc. that is not so private and separate, but a matter of communal relation, like language that is common to all, etc. and here things get very complex, since what we experience as 'reality out there' is already structured by this and taken for granted by us, for example we take for granted rules of transportation, driving, how we can rely for some basic safety while walking down the street on the system of law sustained by the authority, etc.  And this can definitely be undone, there are 'no stars', no solid reality, it all at the same time depends on our measurement, so if we bring back torture, possess people brains, immerse into a digital network, we are in slavery, freedom is no longer existent, people will experience themselves in different ways.....and for people who stand for freedom in some sense, this is a very intense antagonism, as intense as it can get.....the 'reality' out there is always in a sense 'up for grabs' if not sustained by a systematized law/etc., which also needs, improvement and is not self-sustaining reality, but some things get settled then unsettled, basic right begin to evaporate, that whole reality evaporates, your ability to deal with antagonism evaporates and is taken from you(like freedom, etc.); after this we go back from modern times to something like a technological feudalism where a few billionaires make people reliant on their charity for survival and are denied the basic conditions necessary for a free existence or self-sustaining and 'pluralist' dignified existence....

 

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Posted : 25/07/2017 4:11 am
(@melville-pembrokehurst)
Dweller

About the spiral, I don't really have much to say 'cause I didn't have much of a problem with it. But about the Red Room:

A. I got the impression that only Coop can see it, because otherwise people would probably be freaking out seeing a one-armed man in the cake shop.

B. I also feel that this ties into my theory that the Mother/Experiment is somehow affecting the Lodges (possibly breaking down the barriers of reality so that MIKE can keep doing his disappearing/reappearing act).

Finally, about the title of this post:

You have nothing to be sorry about for expressing your own opinion, and anyone who says otherwise is a bigot.

“Harry, I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don’t plan it. Don’t wait for it. Just let it happen. It could be a new shirt at the men’s store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot black coffee.” - Dale Cooper

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Posted : 25/07/2017 4:12 am
(@chris_sampson)
RR Diner Patron

I was quite happy with the swirly sky vortex.  I suppose it doesn't have the inventiveness of some of the Ep 8 scenes, but then I don't really get fussy about the quality of Fx, just use your imagination and get on with it.

I don't understand why the Red Room is being so helpful to Coop. 

 

"We're in the version layer..."

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Posted : 25/07/2017 5:22 am
(@caoimhin)
Detective
Posted by: Chris Sampson

I don't understand why the Red Room is being so helpful to Coop. 

 

Possibly because Mr C tricked them? Doubt they liked that.

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Posted : 25/07/2017 5:24 am
(@subjectivedes)
Lodger

I agree that this episode definitely had some of the best tonal scenes so far, especially both the beginning segment with Becky and the horn honking patience tester outside the diner!

While I also don't have a problem with the portal, I see your criticism @theconversationislively, but I think the standard portal mechanics, when juxtaposed with the expertly crafted sound design and Lynch's physical reactions, proved to be visceral and effective.

My biggest issue with Part 11 was that horrendous music placement of the Elvis cover when Dougie was being driven to the desert. I have loved every single piece of music utilized so far in the Return, but this song had me yelling at the TV! I am willing to cede this criticism and will hopefully change my mind after the shock wears off during repeated viewings, but the tone of that music placement was awful and it took me out of the amazing world they have been building so far - especially when the camera work while the song was playing was so wonderful.

Also, I thought Jim Belushi was terrible in Part 10, but his performance in Part 11 has happily changed my mind. I am now on board with Jim Belushi!

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Posted : 25/07/2017 7:39 am
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