Dougie & Janey E  

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(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: Pantstrovich

I don't like seeing her treat Cooper like an object. I want him to be able to be a full person again, and be able to make his own decisions, rather than being used.

Hi Pants,

Cooper didn't seem to mind being objectified.  Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't mind it too much either.  😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

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Posted : 17/07/2017 4:38 pm
(@mj_gilbert)
Deputy

I still think there is something seriously MISSING in both Janey-e and SJ. Janey-e's failure to recognize how deeply not-right Dougie is is only clarified by her having had (apparently mind-blowing) sex in which Dougie was no more an active participant than in any conversation they have had in what is now, what, 4 days? And SJ continues to barely exist (if indeed he does...). 

 

I thik there is more (or less!) to Janey-e and Sonny-Jim than meets the eye...

I AM the FBI.

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Posted : 17/07/2017 4:46 pm
(@pantstrovich)
RR Diner Patron
Posted by: MJ Gilbert

I still think there is something seriously MISSING in both Janey-e and SJ. Janey-e's failure to recognize how deeply not-right Dougie is is only clarified by her having had (apparently mind-blowing) sex in which Dougie was no more an active participant than in any conversation they have had in what is now, what, 4 days? And SJ continues to barely exist (if indeed he does...). 

 

I thik there is more (or less!) to Janey-e and Sonny-Jim than meets the eye...

I agree. They might not even really exist at all. Only time will tell...

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Posted : 17/07/2017 5:01 pm
(@100monkeys)
Dweller

Or abuse of a "mentally challenged man" ...

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Posted : 17/07/2017 6:34 pm
(@b-randy)
Chief Moderator
Posted by: Pantstrovich

While Dougie-Coop's arms flapping was very funny, I actually found the scene more disturbing than anything. Partly because of all of the reasons Murat has stated, which I whole-heartedly agree with, but also for the simple truth that she was having sex with someone she doesn't even know. She probably doesn’t care, but Cooper probably would, and it sure bothers me.

I don't like seeing her treat Cooper like an object. I want him to be able to be a full person again, and be able to make his own decisions, rather than being used.

It was very funny and entertaining.  However, you do have a point.  It was a bit disturbing and although I don't care that Janey-E is having sex with someone she doesn't really know, it doesn't appear that "Dougie" is really able to consent. So you are right, there is something troubling about that interaction.

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Posted : 17/07/2017 7:13 pm
(@federico_de_luca)
Lodger

I believe the love scenes in this episode might be setting up for a major heartbreak for Janey-e when Cooper wakes up. 

But the sex scene reinforces that feeling of estrangement in living someone else's life unawarely.

However, enough Dougie. Give us back badass Cooper. 

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Posted : 17/07/2017 7:14 pm
(@jonathan_brien)
Lodger
Posted by: Federico De Luca

I believe the love scenes in this episode might be setting up for a major heartbreak for Janey-e when Cooper wakes up. 

But the sex scene reinforces that feeling of estrangement in living someone else's life unawarely.

However, enough Dougie. Give us back badass Cooper. 

Do you guy's have thought she could be pregnant again a little bro. to Sunny J.????

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Posted : 17/07/2017 11:50 pm
(@pynchjan)
RR Diner Patron

Another Lynch masterstroke. This "that's weird" sex scene and its aftermath (Cooper looking just about normal) evokes quite unique and rare (in the history of film) mixed, see-behind-the-disgust or become-aware-of-the-implications feelings towards our incapacitated hero. It seems another subtle follow-through linking back to Eraserhead and The Elephant Man. I took great joy in poor Sonny Jim's response to his introduction to the Freudian primal scene.  

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Posted : 18/07/2017 4:26 am
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

Well put.  The surface attraction to seeing two nice looking people engaging in sex hides the much deeper, darker message that we're being voyeurs to a kind of sexual abuse, which is then offset by the fact that both participants obviously enjoyed it.  That then also leads you to acknowledge the whole idea of consent, and even though Coop in his reduced state is an adult, he is in no way capable of giving consent, even though many cultures believe sexual arousal in males is a sign of consent.

There's also the ongoing thread of alienation, due to how Coop's behaviour is shrugged off, or at best, accepted as being part of who he is and what happened in the past, without any closer examination or attention to him or his needs.  Apart from the obviously stated one, of course.

I am really, really enjoying this particular plot line because it's so multi faceted.  There's just about every single range of emotions and situations you could possibly find in any story, all there with Dougie Coop and family.  Much as I'd love to see Special Agent Dale Cooper back in action, this section is truly, amazingly well done and extremely well thought out.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 18/07/2017 5:15 am
(@jocelyn)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: Murat Erol Özkan
Posted by: Brandy Fisher

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Murat although as always, I truly appreciate your insight.

I don't think Janey-E is as controlling  or as shallow as your assessment of her. I think she has been dealing with a louse for many years and it has helped shape much of her behavior now. She may seem controlling and smothering, she may even be those things, but she has been dealing a spouse with a gambling addiction and an affinity for prostitutes. In other words, Dougie was not necessarily reacting to Janey-E, but rather the other way around.

When she speaks for him or in front of him, she does so because she is filling in the blanks, since he doesn't say much and mostly doesn't make sense.

There are lots and lots of examples but I don't want go into a diatribe about it.  I just don't think this relationship or this character are as symbolic or as in depth as your assessment this time.

 

I definitely agree to some degree, Dougie was also hurting Janey E severely and her smothering is probably also a reaction to Dougie's infidelity, wild behavior, and her attempts to restore things to acceptable conditions are admirable, to say the least. But I think it then goes overboard with the smothering, then the two reaction(Dougie's from the smothering, and Janey's from Dougies wild and cowardly behavior) both reinforce each other and spiral downwards into a nightmare, both people are to blame here, mostly Dougie the first time around. Where I would defend myself is that this is a situation of Richard and Linda(psychopath and crippled in a wheelchair), two birds with one stone, both are reinforcing the mutual self-destruction, rather than working through the hard problems and committing themselves to the mutual love relationship, or making the hard choice of breaking it off if this is necessary.

What came first, Johhny running wild, or Johnny being tied up in a chair and wanting to run wild? Either way these two aspects are part of antagonism that must be confronted and dealt with, the thread must be torn.....

Murder, Johnny appears to be severely autistic. The real problem isn't that Sylvia tied him up, thereby preventing him from "saving" her, but that the Hornes never got Johnny any real help. They have the money to do so, but as i recall, they never called upon anyone but that clown Dr Jacoby. I would agree that they, and others, are in denial about problems. It doesn't look like the Hornes intend to call the police about Richard's home invasion and violence. Maybe from pride, or something to hide.

Johnny is certainly very unfortunate, a victim. But many of your posts  (which I do find very interesting), make it sound like the men in this show are all victims, damaged by the all-consuming smothering female-mother-wife. I do not believe that Lynch's work is reducible to explanations or interpretations rooted in psychoanalysis. 

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Posted : 18/07/2017 5:24 am
(@karen_paynter)
Deputy
Posted by: MJ Gilbert

I still think there is something seriously MISSING in both Janey-e and SJ. Janey-e's failure to recognize how deeply not-right Dougie is is only clarified by her having had (apparently mind-blowing) sex in which Dougie was no more an active participant than in any conversation they have had in what is now, what, 4 days? And SJ continues to barely exist (if indeed he does...). 

 

I thik there is more (or less!) to Janey-e and Sonny-Jim than meets the eye...

Sonny J. is either adopted or the result of a previous relationship.

Fire Walk With Me

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Posted : 18/07/2017 5:30 am
(@ric_bissell)
Deputy
Posted by: SamXTherapy

Well put.  The surface attraction to seeing two nice looking people engaging in sex hides the much deeper, darker message that we're being voyeurs to a kind of sexual abuse, which is then offset by the fact that both participants obviously enjoyed it.  That then also leads you to acknowledge the whole idea of consent, and even though Coop in his reduced state is an adult, he is in no way capable of giving consent...

Hi SamX,

I disagree.  I do agree that "he is in no way capable" of giving verbal ascent. 

But, we have already seen what Cooper, even "in his reduced state," can do when something around him happens that he doesn't "consent" to.  He reacts like lightning, saving the innocents around him, makes sure the gun is aimed safely before it goes off, and he rips the palm clean off Ike the Spike, the assassin sent to kill him.

So, unless you think Cooper flapping his forearms like a funky chicken during the act is him trying to deliver "a good old karate chop right to the neck" to Janey-E, I'd say Coop consented.  Not only that, he enjoyed it.

😉

- /< /\ /> -

That's strange - even for Cooper

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Posted : 18/07/2017 12:26 pm
(@ruskinowl)
Roadhouse Regular
Posted by: dude

To hell with Annie.  Janey E is definitely the gal for Coop!

Agreed. If the series ended with Coop settling down with that broad, I for one would be a happy bunny.

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Posted : 18/07/2017 12:35 pm
(@samxtherapy)
Detective

It would be an interesting legal argument, should such a case ever reach court.

The enjoyment is not the issue; it's the matter of consent, and in my country, it's not possible to assume consent from someone with a severely impaired mental function, or intoxication through drugs and/or alcohol.

Cooper seems to be severely mentally impaired most of the time, and any doctor seeing this would argue the case that consent couldn't be given under such circumstances.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 18/07/2017 12:38 pm
(@silentbobni)
Roadhouse Regular

If Sonny Jim is Dougies kid that opens up a weird paradox of a created person actually able to get someone pregnant if the whole Vegas thing is real and not some imagined world created by the lodge. 

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Posted : 18/07/2017 9:05 pm
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