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A Judy Plan All Along?  

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(@artamisbgone)
Lodger

Not sure I get why Lynch/Frost would have Cole say that he, Cooper and Briggs met and came up with a plan to defeat Judy. That clearly was impossible unless I'm missing something. In season 2 we saw Briggs disappear when with Cooper at night. Later he reappears and offers to help Cooper, but is whisked away, later to be captured by Earle and drugged. Cooper never had a chance to talk to him about Judy because Cooper chased Earle straight in the Black Lodge and was stuck there for 25 years. I understand that Briggs was "hibernating" in the Lodge for 25 years. But are we to assume that he met with Cooper and Cole when he came out of hibernation? Nope. Because Cole clearly says that the plan was hatched before Cooper disappeared. So help me out here, anyone have a thought on how to salvage this mess? 

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Posted : 10/09/2018 12:59 pm
(@julie_loader)
Deputy
Posted by: ArtamisBGone

Not sure I get why Lynch/Frost would have Cole say that he, Cooper and Briggs met and came up with a plan to defeat Judy. That clearly was impossible unless I'm missing something. In season 2 we saw Briggs disappear when with Cooper at night. Later he reappears and offers to help Cooper, but is whisked away, later to be captured by Earle and drugged. Cooper never had a chance to talk to him about Judy because Cooper chased Earle straight in the Black Lodge and was stuck there for 25 years. I understand that Briggs was "hibernating" in the Lodge for 25 years. But are we to assume that he met with Cooper and Cole when he came out of hibernation? Nope. Because Cole clearly says that the plan was hatched before Cooper disappeared. So help me out here, anyone have a thought on how to salvage this mess? 

They were all part of the blue rose task force  and Briggs was stationed at listening post alpha where he was getting the messages ... cooper/cooper/cooper ......theowlsarenotwhattheyseem

He was on to someyhing !

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Posted : 10/09/2018 2:13 pm
(@myn0k)
Deputy

I also have wondered this. One thing to consider is that the blue rose task force was set up with the air force and FBI in tandem with one another. And so, Cole, Cooper and Briggs may already have had dealings with one another before the events of twin peaks. 

According to TSHOTP, Cole helped Milford set up listening post alpha. And then Briggs took it over. 

One other way of interpreting it is that we are seeing reality fluctuations or different playouts of other events. 

In short - who knows! 😀

 

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Posted : 10/09/2018 2:14 pm
(@caemeron)
Deputy

I think there are a couple of possibilities, but I first feel the need to point out that Cole does not say they had a plan to *defeat* Judy -- he simply says a plan to find her.

Possibility 1) They hatched this plan after Cooper was in the Lodge, with the Cooper in the Lodge. Briggs gained the ability to go back and forth (evidenced by his fingerprints being found 16 different times or whatever). The three of them never met together to talk about this; rather Briggs served as the go-between.

This, however, does run into a potential issue with Cole's remarks about Cooper and Briggs disappearing. So,

Possibility 2) The plan was actually hatched in conversation with Mr. C after he left the Lodge at the end of s2 but before he disappeared. Cole didn't realize at that point that there were two Coopers and so on. Briggs got a sense of it after this conversation (plug in the end of Secret History here) and went into hiding without having the opportunity to directly convey information to Cole -- or he didn't know precisely what was up with Cooper at that point, just that something was off, and so on. 

And/or there may be ways to mix those ideas differently and come up with something.

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Posted : 10/09/2018 3:44 pm
(@artamisbgone)
Lodger

True. Frost set things up for that scenario in his book. I forgot about that. I don't mind the retcon for so many things in TP's actually. Though some decisions can be curious at times.

For what it's worth. I'm not the biggest fan in the school of thought that Judy was defeated in the final episode. Though that's certainly possible and a defensible interpretation.

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Posted : 10/09/2018 4:32 pm
(@myn0k)
Deputy
Posted by: Cæmeron Crain

Possibility 2) The plan was actually hatched in conversation with Mr. C after he left the Lodge at the end of s2 but before he disappeared. Cole didn't realize at that point that there were two Coopers and so on. Briggs got a sense of it after this conversation (plug in the end of Secret History here) and went into hiding without having the opportunity to directly convey information to Cole -- or he didn't know precisely what was up with Cooper at that point, just that something was off, and so on. 

This is really interesting and I hadn't considered that. I would just add though that cooper had told Gordon around this point that if he should ever disappear, it's because he's trying to kill two birds with one stone. This to me gives enough evidence it was real coop who spoke about finding Judy. 

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Posted : 11/09/2018 2:10 am
(@artamisbgone)
Lodger

I did think of that too. That Mr C was the one who met with Briggs and Cole instead of Coop. But you're pointed out why that idea won't work either. So the enigma remains. Best thing to do is just accept the Frost/Lynch retcon and move on I guess. I was just throwing the topic out there in case I missed something.

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Posted : 11/09/2018 10:21 am
(@myn0k)
Deputy

If it were any other series I'd also throw out the word retcon. 

But this is lynch and the series has been so elaborate that it wouldnt surprise me if this is no mere retcon 😉

 

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Posted : 11/09/2018 10:25 am
(@artamisbgone)
Lodger

My way of thinking is that they guided the series where it was originally intended anyway. At the end of season 2 we get an indication that Briggs was going to enter the Black Lodge when Sarah (or Earle or BOB speaking through Sarah) gave him the invitation. So there's at least that. When season 3 begins we find that Briggs indeed did enter the BL on a mission, so all's fair. To put it another way, if season 3 had happened back in the day, it would have been different, but much the same as the season 3 of 25 years down the road.

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Posted : 11/09/2018 12:47 pm
(@julie_loader)
Deputy

I just think that Cole Briggs Coop and Jefferies were investigating all this stuff before Laura was killed and while Coop was in Twin Peaks , Briggs received the Cooper  Cooper  Cooper message etc

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Posted : 11/09/2018 3:22 pm Myn0k liked
(@artamisbgone)
Lodger
Posted by: Julie Loader

I just think that Cole Briggs Coop and Jefferies were investigating all this stuff before Laura was killed and while Coop was in Twin Peaks , Briggs received the Cooper  Cooper  Cooper message etc

FWWM would imply this, yes. At least that the inner circle of the FBI was onto something. But Season 2 certainly made it appear that Cooper was learning about many of these things for the first time -- the Lodges certainly. Remember how Cooper had to be corrected when he thought the deep space monitors were aimed toward the heavens when the "cooper/cooper/cooper" message appeared? But if we take into account FWWM and obviously Frost's book, your understanding is quite reasonable and acceptable.

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Posted : 12/09/2018 1:58 pm
(@dobbshead)
Roadhouse Regular

I have no evidence to support this, and I may mess up some of the timing, but it always sat in my head that the three; Cole, Coop, and Briggs, may have met between the time that Leland died and when Cooper went camping with Briggs.  I had mused that those three perceived, or just believed, more about Leland than other witnesses and they quickly gathered to discuss it after seeing Leland divest from Bob.  Cole might've read them in to some history of Bob, and Briggs too would've had input from his end.  Cooper the agent and believer.  That's when I think this meeting happened.   

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Posted : 13/09/2018 12:36 am
(@brian_hardin_ii)
RR Diner Patron

I just had a thought while responding to a different post..

 

What if the entirety of S3 was from the alternate time-line?  I need to go back and rewatch, but in any reference to Laura Palmer, did it cite that she died or was killed?  Specifically I'm trying to recall the interaction when we saw Bobby and he saw her photo on the table.

If this alternate time-line theory is correct, then MANY things we have assumed to be one way.. oh my brain hurts...

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Posted : 13/09/2018 9:33 am
(@myn0k)
Deputy

Hawk states in S3 that Leland killed Laura Palmer. 

 

However, in The Final Dossier, Tammy notes that Sarah Palmer becomes an alcoholic after Leland kills himself (after the one year anniversary of Laura's disappearance). This could hint that the Sarah Palmer scenes we see are in the alternate reality.

I wrote about this actually in this post as I think I put more detail into it there if you're interested in chiming in!

http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-the-final-dossier/sarah-palmers-alcoholism/

This post was modified 1 week  ago by Myn0k
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Posted : 13/09/2018 12:41 pm
(@artamisbgone)
Lodger
Posted by: Myn0k

Hawk states in S3 that Leland killed Laura Palmer. 

 

However, in The Final Dossier, Tammy notes that Sarah Palmer becomes an alcoholic after Leland kills himself (after the one year anniversary of Laura's disappearance). This could hint that the Sarah Palmer scenes we see are in the alternate reality.

I wrote about this actually in this post as I think I put more detail into it there if you're interested in chiming in!

http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/discuss/twin-peaks-the-final-dossier/sarah-palmers-alcoholism/

Now that's a fun thought. Could be. Hard to say since we don't really see Sarah in season two after Leland's funeral. So we don't know if the alcoholism began at that point or not. When Jacoby brings her into the RR last episode of  S2, she certainly doesn't appear drunk, just in a trance. 

Come to think of it, was that Judy speaking through her there? Probably not. But we now know she had the "bug" in her at that point. So interesting.

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Posted : 13/09/2018 1:07 pm Myn0k liked
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