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Posted by: Pier Federico Miozzo
Posted by: Yambag021
Posted by: Chris Gorgon

Plenty of other things on TV for the Bud Light crowd. 

And there's "that guy".

Which did the same as you did.

Not at all.

 

The "you just don't get lynch" or "you cant appreciate" art are the typical replies from people who blindly follow lynch and refuse to acknowedge any criticism of the show. As far as they are concerned, episodes 14-18 and season 4 (regardless of its made or not) are perfect.

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Posted : 12/08/2017 5:53 pm
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Posted by: groovy-llama-fan

You know what else works against the warmth in original recipe TP had in this season? The constant gruesome violence. You become so desensitised to it that it loses dramatic impact. After a while you're like:"oh, great - ANOTHER headless mannequin prop with CGI blood..."

There is a reason that Breaking Bad kept explicit violence down to a min. despite having the carte blanche to do so on a cable network and with the show's subject matter: it was far more effective when it actually occurred and you were sure that it was necessary to the story. Oftentimes censorship actually stimulates creativity. The old TP's nail+tweezer scene was more impactful than all of this season's graphic violence combined. TV censorship back then forced Lynch into a subtlety he's not used to and the end product was all the better for it.

The more I watch the more I feel there isn't many more storylines in this one as in seasons 1-2.

 

The issue is seasons 1-2 for the most part (if not all) was confined to twin peaks. Did stuff happen outside of peaks? Sure, but you didn't see it. I think being out of tp as much as they are makes it more overwhelming.

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Posted : 12/08/2017 5:57 pm
Karen
Deputy
Posted by: groovy-llama-fan

"Translation: "I know nothing about David Lynch's work."  

Really? Seen most of his films + TP, and know a lot about the context of his work and biography. Even details like the financing of the final 3rd of Mulholland Dr. coming from French Canal+, the popularity of original TP behind the Iron Curtain, and his overall style being essentially European.

Have I passed the test for the adoring Lynch crowd?

Oh good. Now can we go back to rational critique?

And knowing them you make an ignorant statement about his work. ONCE AGAIN, you people that come here to insult those of us enjoying this artistic show are wasting your time. "Rational." HA

Fire Walk With Me

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Posted : 12/08/2017 10:41 pm
Karen
Deputy

"There are plenty of other shows that became global sensations and/or gained major cult status, and Lynch had nothing to do with them."

That response is to something I did not say. I spoke only about TP.

Fire Walk With Me

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Posted : 12/08/2017 10:46 pm
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As I've said before elsewhere, I'm more than comfortable for these 18 hours to be whatever they are. I don't need it to be all confined to Twin Peaks at all. I am capable of criticism of David Lynch, but I am equally comfortable to accept that I'm being challenged on multiple fronts with this series, which to me is a complete subversion of the tv genre. The story is playing out by the choices they, the writers et al made, not ours. I am delighted that it's generating so much discourse, and that I share the love of it with so many people, but I can't have anyone else's experience for them so therefore can't make any judgement on them for anything they feel about it. I can only disagree with their opinion. I'm often incensed by the way some of the points are made, so do my best to observe them, letting them float by without letting them in and potentially creating a reaction by me that doesn't serve me, nor anyone else very well.

I am keen to see what happens and how that sits for me as a result.

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Posted : 12/08/2017 10:57 pm sleevette, Caoimhín Shirey, 1stDragonarse and 4 people liked
SamXTherapy
Detective
Posted by: Colin Basterfield

As I've said before elsewhere, I'm more than comfortable for these 18 hours to be whatever they are. I don't need it to be all confined to Twin Peaks at all. I am capable of criticism of David Lynch, but I am equally comfortable to accept that I'm being challenged on multiple fronts with this series, which to me is a complete subversion of the tv genre. The story is playing out by the choices they, the writers et al made, not ours. I am delighted that it's generating so much discourse, and that I share the love of it with so many people, but I can't have anyone else's experience for them so therefore can't make any judgement on them for anything they feel about it. I can only disagree with their opinion. I'm often incensed by the way some of the points are made, so do my best to observe them, letting them float by without letting them in and potentially creating a reaction by me that doesn't serve me, nor anyone else very well.

I am keen to see what happens and how that sits for me as a result.

Well said, mate.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum

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Posted : 12/08/2017 11:09 pm
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New TP is much darker with less exuberant acting, but the slow/awkward pacing that is driving some nuts was there in the original.  For instance, the Lynch-directed final episode is arguably the best hour in TV history yet includes two snails pace/oddball scenes: the bank and when Andy is taking Sheriff Truman's meal order.  

Personally, I think the new TP is very strong.  Outside of 3-5 episodes from the original, the new TP is a much better and richer experience.

Edited: 2 weeks  ago
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Posted : 12/08/2017 11:10 pm Myn0k, sleevette, Caoimhín Shirey and 1 people liked
Dweller

Badalamenti Fan, I think that Lynch is unquestionably a genius in certain areas, but the overrating part comes from people attributing him with success in areas he’s not gifted in. I essentially find him an extremely talented but hollow stylist. To create really great stuff he needs someone to help him with the content on 1 hand and restrain him from indulgence on the other. This is exactly what the old TP achieved for most of its run: it had Frost creating the ‘meat’ of the show (characterisation, plot and emotional connection) and ABC/CBS restraining him with censorship and run time. Ceding total creative control to Lynch on censorship- free cable for this season was a disastrously bad idea. The best Lynch is suitably constrained Lynch (one that has to adhere to a certain length, budget and/or content). No wonder that The Return is an overindulgent mess that has TP fans tearing their hair out.

 

Back to attributing David with talents he doesn’t have: my biggest qualm here is intellectual depth. To be blunt – he doesn’t have any, but the artiness of his style gives off the veneer of it and people project their own smarts onto the canvas. For example, I find the discussions around Blue Velvet far more intellectually stimulating than the film itself. BV the movie insults the viewers’ intelligence by beating them over the head with a shovel with its basic themes. Sandy can’t just deliver her robin speech anywhere. Oh no. She has to do IN FRONT OF A FANCY CHURCH!!! With colour saturation and ridiculously pretty lighting and really loud music on top!! And the whole film is like this: Dorothy literally wears a blue velvet robe for about half her screentime. Sandy just has to cry in that classic OTT Dern way and frequently dress in pink. The colour oversaturation of the pretty roses and fence in the opening shot make your eyes hurt to make you extra disgusted at the bugs underneath, which drives home the symbolism with the intensity of a marching band. And yes, I know it’s homage to naive 50s film style. Problem is that BV’s style is equally naive.

 

Another real problem with Lynch’s work is the emotional coldness. In the old TP, Badalamenti’s music, actors and Frost’s character writing injected the warmth. Here only Kyle and Naomi’s acting provide a small dose of it via the Dougie storyline. The 1st Chromatics performance was also perfectly nostalgic. The digital video isn’t helping matters. It seems like Lynch never got a handle on the colour correction that makes other prestige TV look more filmic, or at least artfully frigid like on Rectify and Top of the Lake. Too often the footage this season just looks like a home video and that contributes to the distant feel.

 

Lynch’s success seems to be based on his ability to deliver European auteur style within American settings. As for more recommendations: have you seen any Scandi Noir? The recent Midnight Sun was utterly brilliant.

Edited: 2 weeks  ago
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Posted : 13/08/2017 10:52 am Badalamenti Fan liked
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Although only up to and including part 10, I feel this podcast is worthy of a listen.

http://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/538081943/pop-culture-happy-hour-twin-peaks

I think it covers such a lot of the feelings that have surfaced as a result of this Return.

I can't add much to it, other than it's the absurdism that fascinates me far more than the literalism.

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 13/08/2017 6:18 pm
Deputy
Posted by: groovy-llama-fan

No wonder that The Return is an overindulgent mess that has TP fans tearing their hair out.

I would say that, on this forum at least - because I've not visited other TP forums - the general consensus seems to be that people are loving the series. Myself included, and I'm a huge fan of the original series. I had no expectations of The Return and I am loving every minute of it. 

I say that as someone who is not an overly huge fan of Lynch, to be honest. I don't dislike him - I can just give or take most of his films. 

(I can certainly leave his music) :p

Edited: 1 week  ago
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Posted : 13/08/2017 6:27 pm Jocelyn Rowe liked
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Posted by: JeffreyGWillett

New TP is much darker with less exuberant acting, but the slow/awkward pacing that is driving some nuts was there in the original.  For instance, the Lynch-directed final episode is arguably the best hour in TV history yet includes two snails pace/oddball scenes: the bank and when Andy is taking Sheriff Truman's meal order.  

Personally, I think the new TP is very strong.  Outside of 3-5 episodes from the original, the new TP is a much better and richer experience.

The tp finale was at light speed compared to this season. 

If season 3 closes like season 2, it'll be a huge success.

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Posted : 13/08/2017 7:00 pm
Dweller

"Watched it with my partner who really likes Lynch and likes Twin Peaks but is not a dedicated 'fan'. They can't understand why I keep making excuses for the show or why I'm still interested."

Judging by the shockingly low viewing figures of this season (for the cultiest of all cult TV shows that has stood the test of time), most TP fans have done exactly what the OP's partner has - simply bailed by this point and certainly not bothering to post online. So forums are largely filled up with REALLY dedicated TP fans or simply Lynch fans, which is why it generally looks so positive on the web.

And where was I displaying ignorance regarding knowing stuff about Lynch's work? Enlighten me, oh wise one. And while you're at it - tell me how diverse your viewing experience is in general. How many non-US auteurs do you know? How many languages have you watched productions in? Have you attended many foreign film fests? What arthouse do you like outside of Lynch? And most importantly - why does he keep his work so firmly within his comfort zone?

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Posted : 14/08/2017 9:58 am
Dweller

PS for Badalamenti Fan

To add to my assertion that Lynch's standing hinges on delivering European arthouse style in American wrapping:

He really makes the whole exercise so terribly convenient for American (and perhaps other English-speaking) pseudo-arthouse lovers. They don't have to deal with pesky subtitles, unfamiliar cultural context, unknown names+faces or go to foreign film fests to access the broad international screen art scene. What he provides them is the equivalent of travelling to an exotic country and then staying in your hotel room eating McDonalds.

He also gives that specifically American cherry on top: brutal violence rendered in obsessive artistic detail. European autuers stay well away from blood for entertainment and would never go to the trouble of getting the sound design of crunching bones right. I don't think any of them would even know how to choreograph a basic fight scene.

So yes - I'm terribly cynical about the fervent Lynch crowd. Most I've encountered online tend to really lack wide arthouse or experimental TV perspective. They don't recognise that Lynch is just 1 fish in a very big pond of non-mainstream entertainment. He just happens to be a really famous, American fish with a cult of personality. For example, there's a really experimental British series called The Shadow Line which very much rivals The Return on uniqueness with the same dark, sterile tone.

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Posted : 20/08/2017 12:22 am
Dweller

To me, even part 8 of this doesn't feel groundbreaking. It played like something out of The Twilight Zone - just with gore and 21st century effects. I kept waiting for Rod Serling to pop up at the end. But I can see how it would seem original and daring to a mainstream viewer without extensive exposure to out-of-the-box material. 

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Posted : 20/08/2017 1:27 am
Dweller

"Maybe that's why it feels so disjointed to everyone, because apart from the  "Buckhorn", "New York", "Las Vegas" captions, there's been damn all in the way of explanation, exposition or the general hand holding that happens with television and movies."

Nope. Rectify didn't do any hand-holding either and it was amazing. The key difference is that show had a soul and focus.

Edited: 4 days  ago
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Posted : 20/08/2017 5:23 am
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